ALFA PG-13 or 18+ ?

[Analogkid]

I get the impression by some that they've felt they're being held back by current standards? In which case, why change ALFA when one could try someplace else where everything goes? Why disallow or kick out those who don't make a fuss, don't post constantly and don't garner any attention since they do plain old vanilla RPing?


Is current ALFA standards so prudish that we need to change this to adults only to RP the way some(or many based on the poll) want?

[Swift]

Why disallow or kick out those who don't make a fuss, don't post constantly and don't garner any attention since they do plain old vanilla RPing?

Nobody has suggested doing any of this.

[CloudDancing]

I want to go back a few posts and recognize the worry that players will be "forced" into adult/violent/scary situations.

1. You can always log off

2. You can expressly asked to be ported by the Dm. You must say "Please port me out of here." I realize we have people PTSD and abuse issues. If this is triggering something, be clear with the Dm and leave. But you must be clear.

3. Insofar I am the only Dm I know that tried to do a really scary hostage situation which I could consider bridging into scary, rated NC-17 content. And even then I did not blatantly do anything, I just implied some scary things out of the IC range of the characters views with flavor text. It was a psychological attempt to get the players to PLAY out their feelings and actions in a hostage no-win situation. But because there had not been any dming for over a month, many of the players were really rusty about what it was like to be expected to perform in a strictly RP mode with no combat alternatives.

4. Because of the constraints of our system, no absolutely nude haks, the inability to remove collisions, non-functioning suspend and torture devices, AND the judicous snipping of Kemo Animations, we cannot visually replicate adult acts. You will NEVER "see" on your screeen adult acts on going in the visual sense. That is a huge thing so really, the most adult thing you will "see" is a bunch of people sitting AROUND a bed (since no one makes walkable beds) or in chairs emoting. That doesnt seem very erotic or adult.

5. As per the people who think it is ok pass as adults:
In the USA if a United States Citizen or a Canadian citizen enters into a online exchange with an minor (according to their states laws, but basically under 18) and that person and/or parents decide to notitfy the police/fbi, that person CAN be arrested, their computer seized, and all record of thier ERP with that person (consensual or not) be used to put them away in jail. Keyloggers and finding your logs are pretty easy to do on a computer. Do you really want to send someone to jail? Do you really want to be the person caught up in being sent to jail? Without a consent waiver OR some sort of signed form on record someone is legally an adult in their country, we have no protection even against hearsay nonetheless actual acts.

6. More standards and more rules are just going to strangle our player base. Alfa should be like the ESRB said, "Online Gameplay May Change at Any Time." If it changes in a way you don't like and can't deal with, turn it off!

[Blindhamsterman]

alternatively, erp could be left for social servers, ALFA doesn't NEED it, it's never been what ALFA was about. And for the purposes of playing the game, a simple fade to black would 90% of the time suffice. Then there's no issue of jail for americans or whatever else either?

(Equally, if you're 100% sure someone is over the consenting age, having met them or something, erp as much as you like, really no issue with that either)

but hey whatever, Cloud made a valid point, if folk don't like the way things might change, they are able to leave...

[Gebb]

I like the "unrated" idea. Why set a standard where one isn't needed? Anyone is free to log off or go elsewhere anytime if they are personally offended.

I remember the first monster manual had some very "adult" pics and themes in it (Succubus comes to mind), but that never harmed me despite my young eyes and imagination. Hell, any book of mythology would have the same themes. Mature game includes mature content. D&D-Online is a better place for sensitive children looking for an arcade experience, probably not ALFA.

[hollyfant]

1. You can always log off

Alfa should be like the ESRB said, "Online Gameplay May Change at Any Time." If it changes in a way you don't like and can't deal with, turn it off!

Nothing personal, Cloud, but that argument is really, really getting on my nerves. Not playing is not a solution to any problem. It's telling people to just bugger off. Love it or leave it. And guess what: people will leave. If I ever leave, it's because I'm told not to play one time too many.

(Again, that's not personal. It's just me venting. Sorry 'bout that. Love ya.)

[Mirabai]

I want to go back a few posts and recognize the worry that players will be "forced" into adult/violent/scary situations.

1. You can always log off

2. You can expressly asked to be ported by the Dm. You must say "Please port me out of here." I realize we have people PTSD and abuse issues. If this is triggering something, be clear with the Dm and leave. But you must be clear.

3. Insofar I am the only Dm I know that tried to do a really scary hostage situation which I could consider bridging into scary, rated NC-17 content. And even then I did not blatantly do anything, I just implied some scary things out of the IC range of the characters views with flavor text. It was a psychological attempt to get the players to PLAY out their feelings and actions in a hostage no-win situation. But because there had not been any dming for over a month, many of the players were really rusty about what it was like to be expected to perform in a strictly RP mode with no combat alternatives.

Let me take a moment here to point out how utterly and incontrovertibly WRONG you are.

What you describe above amounts to RAILROADING players into a situation which, to paraphrase your own words, "may trigger ... PTSD and abuse issues".

As the DM, you are in a position of power. A silly sort of virtual power but power all the same. What you describe above is abuse of your power and all-around poor judgment. It is not up to the player to have to tell you "um, hello this is traumatizing me". It is not on the player to 'deal or log off'. It is on YOU to practice good judgment and communicate to your players when you intend to run something that could be potentially upsetting or offensive. Kid gets kidnapped and the PCs have to go save him? Fine. Kid gets kidnapped and the PCs hear him being beaten and abused in the next room while the PCs are bound and unable to help him? NOT OK WITHOUT CLEARING IT WITH THE PLAYERS FIRST. Bandits break into a farmer's house and hold his wife hostage? Fine. Bandits graphically rape the wife in front of the farmer and in sight of PCs to show they mean business? NOT OK WITHOUT CLEARING IT WITH THE PLAYERS FIRST.

This does not mean you have to sit the players down and tell them everything you are thinking of doing, thus giving away the plot and all your surprises. This means that you have a discussion with them stating something like "I need to know how you guys feel about graphic, adult themes, if you're OK with them, and what you aren't OK with". You may receive answers such as "I'm OK with graphic violence but not sex" or "I'm OK with anything except violence against children" etc. Then you will know, and you will always know. Drama is averted, everyone is happy. You do NOT say "I'm about to run a session with graphic and disturbing scenes so everyone who doesn't like that GTFO".

EVEN BETTER is getting to know your players for a while before deciding to run something graphic and potentially disturbing. You really don't need to be running graphic disturbing NC-17 crap for brand-new players with whom you have little to no prior relationship. The imagination is a theoretically limitless pool to draw from and there sure as hell are plenty of awesome, engaging, scary, wondrous plot ideas which don't involve an iota of demon sex or child abuse.

To illustrate what I mean by getting to know your players I will use two players, Mick and Zelknolf.

I have known both these players for years. I am on a real name basis with both of them and consider them to be friends although I have never met either in RL. Mick was my very first RP buddy in ALFA, back in 2004 when I first joined. I have DMd both players. I know exactly what their limits are. I know there are things I could run for Mick that I would never for a moment consider running Zelk through. They are different people with different tolerance levels. Both players TRUST me. Because of that trust, I can kidnap Zelknolf's PC and stick her in a Loviatarian dungeon without asking her first if that's OK, because I know she knows I know exactly how far to take it without upsetting her, which would be to a different length were it Mick's PC in the dungeon.

The point is they trust me, and that's what one of a DM's highest priorities should be- establishing trust. Until you know without a doubt that your players trust you, you don't get to f*ck with them. You sure as hell don't establish trust by taking a "if you don't like it/can't handle it, GTFO" attitude.

In case you missed the main point of this rant, let me sum up:

As the DM, the onus is on YOU to ensure AHEAD OF TIME, whether through a long-standing relationship with the players built on trust, or through clear communication and establishing boundaries, that all players are consenting and comfortable with anything potentially traumatizing or objectionable you intend to run.

The end.

[Analogkid]

Why disallow or kick out those who don't make a fuss, don't post constantly and don't garner any attention since they do plain old vanilla RPing?

Nobody has suggested doing any of this.

So if we switch do adults only, what happens when a 14 year member lets it slip that he or she is said age? nothing happens? if that is to be the case then logically the best way to go would be for unrated or to clearly state that adult situations may arise, etc etc.

[Castano]

14 year olds should not be on here with the current older player base, our constant recruiting of new members and lack of GM type supervision and chat filters and all the other crap RPG games like WoW do to allow anyone of any age onto their servers. So tough cookies - they'd be kicked out and told to reapply when 18.

[Swift]

Why disallow or kick out those who don't make a fuss, don't post constantly and don't garner any attention since they do plain old vanilla RPing?

Nobody has suggested doing any of this.

So if we switch do adults only, what happens when a 14 year member lets it slip that he or she is said age? nothing happens? if that is to be the case then logically the best way to go would be for unrated or to clearly state that adult situations may arise, etc etc.

What you suggest there is something entirely different to what you suggest in the quoted text.

[JaydeMoon]

Fucking ALFA.

I lol!

[JaydeMoon]

Ƥøا ALFA.

The censor script indicates a PG rating.

[Analogkid]

Why disallow or kick out those who don't make a fuss, don't post constantly and don't garner any attention since they do plain old vanilla RPing?

Nobody has suggested doing any of this.

So if we switch do adults only, what happens when a 14 year member lets it slip that he or she is said age? nothing happens? if that is to be the case then logically the best way to go would be for unrated or to clearly state that adult situations may arise, etc etc.

What you suggest there is something entirely different to what you suggest in the quoted text.

The first was not a suggestion, but rather a statement as to how things appear to be going with some in ALFA having the ability to remake the place to suit their desires for "mature content". The second is a question as to what would happen when a minor does try to play on ALFA. Sorry about the confusion.

[Basilica]

So, by making ALFA 18+, we will lose potential players that won't even be able to sign up.

While this is seriously risking forking the thread, I have to say that this statement deserves a bit more consideration, for another reason.

As far as I can tell, the proverabial marketing faucet is, as it is now, pretty much completely turned off. I see virtually no ALFA presence on the Bioware Social forums[1], for example, and generally little to none in the way of marketing/advertising of what the game world has to offer to the community at large. (Not a single reference even on the new Steam forums either, where there is a lot of new 'fresh blood'.)

There's the whole addage of "if there's a problem, do something about it and don't just point it out." Okay, that's fair, but it is probably worth noting that -- as an incoming player, anyway -- ALFA seems to be pretty obscurely buried as it is today, as far as the community at large goes. Even our internal PR forum here hasn't been posted in since nearly a year ago.

To tie this back to the matter at hand, if we are to cite 18+/Adults Only as a growth problem, I think that there are much bigger fish to fry in that department first before we even begin to tackle that as a major contributing factor, at least in my view.

(While I may be a newcomer here, I think that it is at least within reason for me to point out that, as a newcomer, had I not been looking particularly hard, ALFA would have slipped nearly wholly beneath the radar. To the best of what I have seen, very nearly our entire outward appearance to the world at large is a group of password protected servers listed in the server browser, which really isn't exactly a player magnet. Though I am not disputing whether they should be password protected, just pointing this out...)

In other words -- if we are concerned about growth (and I do think that this is a very valid concern, given player numbers), let's address that directly and separately, and not in the context of this discussion, as there's a much bigger picture going on to that effect.

And to be clear, if I have missed our marketing efforts, I sincerely apologize for that. But then again, the whole point of marketing efforts is to not be missed...

[1] And to be completely transparent, the only reference I have found for this on the Bioware Social forums is an outdated listing in a PW index thread, made by someone who doesn't even play on ALFA, with a line item description that barely does the ALFA concept and what it offers to the RP community at large the sort of justice and differentiation that ALFA deserves. And this, I only found after specifically going to search for things that mentioned ALFA, just now...

[oldgrayrogue]

I was avoiding posting here.

One of the reasons this came up was that, as PA I was seeing a trend in "mature" themes issues, DMs were as well, and the reality is there is quite a bit of that type of RP going on on ALFA. A question was raised about potential host liability if we encountered an incident involving a minor, and for that reason alone i think we should have an over 18 button to click when an app is submitted. The prior poll shows that the majority of the active community is in fact over 18, so i don't see how this is such a big change.