Marine urination , shocking?

[rorax]

I was wondering about the opinions of ALFA members on the following subject:


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/12/us/vi ... ?hpt=hp_t1

[I-KP]

Most people who live cosseted lives behind western civilised protections think that war is a noble and honourable affair. Guess what, it isn't.

[hollyfant]

Shocking? No.
But it's still wrong.

[kid]

Eh... can I be shocked?

Its beyond wrong.

But yeah. Human kind often sucks. we know that.

[maxcell]

Eh... can I be shocked?

Its beyond wrong.

But yeah. Human kind often sucks. we know that.

[t-ice]

If there's something truly shocking here, it's how the treatment of lifeless bodies seems more important than killing people in the first place. Screwed up world when people focus on the insult when the injury is a mortal wound.

[kid]

If there's something truly shocking here, it's how the treatment of lifeless bodies seems more important than killing people in the first place. Screwed up world when people focus on the insult when the injury is a mortal wound.

No T. you might HAVE to kill or be killed. I can eccept that.
As an Isreali I KNOW that we will kill and be killed.
There is no way for the indevidual to stop that.
But to choose to be a rotten human being... thats something else.

[Hialmar]

Those marines should be treated for mental illnesses.

And yes I am shocked.
What would you feel if it was the body of your brother/father ?

[t-ice]

But to choose to be a rotten human being... thats something else.

Well that's the thing, these young men didn't just choose this, they were purposefully made for this. They're displaying a core tenet of every military: You must put pride before life in order to be a willing party in the dying and killing. Attacking pride even after life is taken, like they do here, is then simply an act of showing they've internalized this part of their core conditioning and can apply it.

I've done my time in service, being taught to be a soldier, and this is perhaps the single most important lesson I feel I learned. I'd figure as Isreali you have done your time as well, Kid, so you would not be oblivious.

I should add this hasn't (much) to do with the other military core tenet of "communal self defense". Unfortunately the world has no consent only PvP* rule, so armies are a necessary part of human organization. But it shouldn't come as a shock when armies do what they're supposed to and soldiers act how they've been conditioned at heart. That's why it's the killing that matters, the disrespect is just necessarily along for the ride. Suppressing or hiding the disrespect might be politically convenient and ultimately essential in helping bring about peace eventually. But it doesnt' make the soldiers any less "rotten" when the Army forces a virtuous facade after necessarily carving away its core.

And that's why the "rotten apple" theory, invoked again and again, is the truly infuriating part.
I am willing to confess that, if pressed to the same circumstance, in my heart I know I wouldn't really be better than these men.

* People vs People

What would you feel if it was the body of your brother/father?

I'd be far more distraught by the fact that he's dead in the first place.

[MaskedIllusion]

The whole thing is messed up in the first place, but doing that after they are dead, is even more shocking, and more wrong I believe. I can see the point of kill or be killed or whatever, but that is not even the point I am trying to make, almost all religions, all cultures, see a dead body as something different then it was when it was alive, something to be respected/honored. That is why we have funerals, bury our people in 6000 caskets, have funeral pyers, have prayers and rituals and vigils and such. So no matter what my feelings on the war, weather its wrong or right or whatever, I do feel showing that much disrespect to the dead is horrible.

[johnlewismcleod]

What T-Ice said.

When men kill each other in organized conflict the participants must out of necessity adjust their minds to deal with the horror and terror of the thing. This entails what T-Ice mentioned as well as disdain for the enemy (some have referred to it as "dehumanizing" the enemy).

It's very difficult to kill people you honour and respect, but given the fact that people organize and try to kill us...I really so no alternative to defending ourselves.

In my family, who fought on what side in conflicts is still remembered and commented upon in wars going back to the eighteenth century. Terrible grudges are formed in war and they don't go away quickly afterward.

War sucks peanuts.

[fluffmonster]

I'm more on T's side. Unprofessional and wrong? Yes. They also undermine the mission by allowing this to be recorded and seen by others and empowering their foe. In the age of the internet, they should have known better. Judgement fail in the act, judgement fail in the recording.

Shocking? As if all of the other things that go on in war are not? No.

[Sidhe]

Seen worse.

[Lucifer]

These Marines were part of a sniper unit taught to kill from a distance with no thoughts of whom their targets were. yes targets not victims..to do their jobs they deal with assets and targets not victims or people. They are taught to be calculating and cold and have no regard for anything but the mission. Yet after all this despite the fact that they have been assigned and reprogrammed to be tools of death..we expect them to respect and honor their enemy, no matter what this enemy may havedone toward there brothers in arms ortoward civilians. What these men did was a breach of conduct and wrong I think we all agree..but they disrespected dead corpses not live humans. They have served their country... they have killed an enemy that did not even know it was a target and did not offer them a physical threat when they were taken out. I do not say offer those Marines a free pass, Butr as others will say..in war what they have done is barely even a blip on the radar compared to what is done probably on a daily basis. My son is currently in the Military..compared to waterboarding or other torture, pissing on his corpse after death ..I would hate it but would rather have that then have him tortured for days..which by the way most governments would keep secret and reward the torturers should they gain information. So ..I wish we could stop the media from publuicly torturing these 4 Marines and allow it to be handled by the military as they would any such case that was not put on Youtube.

[Rotku]

So ..I wish we could stop the media from publuicly torturing these 4 Marines and allow it to be handled by the military as they would any such case that was not put on Youtube.

No, the purpose of the media is to make sure various elements of government are held accountable. I imagine now that the Marines have media pressure to act and discipline these guys, they will do the job properly. Otherwise things just get swept under the table and never heard about again.

you might HAVE to kill or be killed. I can eccept that.

Nonsense. Every single one of those soldiers chose to be over there. It's not just a coincidence that an American Marine just happened to be wandering through Afghanistan, when some rabid evil Afghani tried to attack him. The individual travelled half way across the world with the sole purpose of killing. There was no GM railroading these PCs.

And that's the first political post I've made in ALFA since Danubus left.