Oz, Land of the Free and Home of the...

[I-KP]

I have looked at stats, when it comes to violent crime we are lower by far than most of the other major developed countries.

In the light of understanding that every country measures violent crime using its own internal categorization, i.e., the UK classes burglary as a violent crime whereas in the US it's a property crime, and that there are no internationally agreed standards for such categorization, I'd be very interested to see how your stats were collected. For the purposes of comparing one nation to another there really is only one metric that evades domestic politic spin and stands up to scrutiny, and that's homicide rates; it's very difficult to class a murder as anything other than a murder - it's pretty much the de facto international standard of measurement, as grisly as that is.

[Adanu]

You do not try and debate anyway Adanu. All you do is hop into threads to snipe at me.

More power to you, though, if that's all you can manage.

I'm all for actual debate, such as the one thread asking for ideas. I don't deal with biased attacks. You called the US 'gun culture' batshit insane. Where in that is there any room for debate? I'm not going to change your mind with that attitude.

[Stormseeker]

accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes here all count toward total gun deaths in most studies*shrugs* chalk this up there with the climate discussion as far as collecting data is concerned.
I get my stats from fbi,cia,states, and even un. Poverty is one of the main factors along with lack of "community/parenting".
Now parenting could be single parent or parents who do not teach the right morals or values into their offspring.
Community could be anything from no influence from churchs,boyscouts,ymca,ffa, or big brother programs. Starting to see a actual lack of .....well self worth and pride in ones family,community, and country from the newest generation. Too much "what is in it for me" and "i deserve it, even though i havent earned it" mentality.

Like all great countries we seem to be on a downward trend, it won't be fast unless we have a major disaster biblical style. We will bleed slow and odds are fragment into smaller countries.
All i can do as a parent is to insure that my daughters can fight,hunt,farm, and have the tools to survive. After that i may be lucky to teach grandkids and even great grandkids.(as a side note my great grandfather showed me small springs,caves, old trails, and what you can and can not eat....was blessed he lived to be 94)

lol well that's enough rambling of this 42 year old man, may come across as a violent person, but i also know when NOT to use violence...and have hopefully passed that onto my kids.

[Swift]

You do not try and debate anyway Adanu. All you do is hop into threads to snipe at me.

More power to you, though, if that's all you can manage.

I'm all for actual debate, such as the one thread asking for ideas. I don't deal with biased attacks. You called the US 'gun culture' batshit insane. Where in that is there any room for debate? I'm not going to change your mind with that attitude.

Oh, you mean that ideas thread where it took you 5 pages of refusing to elaborate on what you were actually arguing until someone that wasn't me told you they had no idea what you were arguing?

Yeah, stellar example of your willingness to debate there

[Sidhe]

I am an ardent supporter of the US-Australia alliance, including the military power that it can bring should we ever need it,

We have no formal military alliance with the US in the way you think we do. Our "alliance" does not mean that Uncle Sam will come in guns blazing if China or Indonesia decide to move - all it does is promise that they will consider entering into a conflict in defence of us (read if they think they can win and if it is in their best interest). Stationing marines in Darwin and UAV's all over the pacific is all very nice posturing to face the 'Chinese Threat' but if American hegemony was that secure they would not need to. Realistically all we get from the "alliance" is tech that is otherwise offered to Euro nations who can afford to pay (Arizona class (?) N subs to replace our failed collins project for instance). ANd the price? We cowtow and tag along to every major conflict the US has been involved in.

I would not be holding my breath for US involvement if we entered into conflict with a developed, some would argue superior strength, like China should it ever decide to build a fleet that could bring its dominating landforce to bear. A long line of conflicts the US has been involved in shows it has no stomach* to fight on equal footing with an equally developed foe, and even when it looms over inferior forces the outcome is questionable (Nam, Afghan). Lucky most Chinese generals think that the easiest way to conqure Aus is via buying us out economically, eh? Aus needs to accept that it is not a major power, it is a medium regional power and be satisfied with, and play to, those strengths.

As to the US firearm laws: People kill people, not firearms but from my time in the US what troubles me is the standard of hardware that is available to the public and the lack of respect involved in its handling. THere is no legitimate reason why AR's, high cap mags, large calibre rounds (50 cal), silencers or suppressors, vehicle mounted weapons or high cyclic rate weapons should ever be made available to the public. If you truely belive there is a reason then you have no respect for what these weapons can do, or, have never really used these weapons for their intended purpose - which is to kill humans, make no mistake.

*Not stating in any way that the America people are cowards, i know firsthand they are not, simply pointing out that elected govt officals at the time made these choices.

[I-KP]

accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes here all count toward total gun deaths in most studies*shrugs* chalk this up there with the climate discussion as far as collecting data is concerned.

You're confusing the issue. You attempt to deflect concerns over enormously high levels of gun-related deaths in the US partly by stating that violent crime levels as a whole are falling faster in the US than in any other developed nation, thus implying that gun crime may be proportionately high but crime as a whole is actually low, and I pointed out that there is no international standard of measuring violent crime levels thus such crude comparisons cannot be made. However, international numbers can be compared when referring to homicide rates because a murder is a murder is a murder; not suicides, not accidents, and not anything else, the deliberate and unlawful taking of a Human life. So no, this cannot be merely chalked up to being another 'climate debate' with regard to stats reliability; homicide rates are accurately quantifiable and like it or lump it the US has by far and away the highest homicide rate (per 100,000 population) of any developed nation, and nearly 70% [Source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 2012] of those deaths are caused by firearms.

[gonz.0]

Are you part of a militia? I would bet 99% of American gun owners are not.

First and foremost - Your question about people in Militia... I can't say for certain as the definitions of so many words have been skewed over the years. However I recently read that current standing forces of the US, active duty, reservists, and paramilitary organizations such as rangers and police departments is in excess of 3mil persons.

Take into account that most of us who signed up to serve, can be called back into service, my guess would be more than double that number of retirees and those who served basic time and got out of military service in the last 20 years, and would still be considered by standards of such things, as trained militia per the standards of 17-1800s at least.

Considering just that, 9mil of the the roughly 315 mil citizenry is either actively serving ready to serve with notice. That would be roughly 2.8% with modern training. Most of those that I know, are gun owners, and I have trouble imagining a person trained and still legally able to own a fire arm giving up that right willingly.

Estimates are that roughly 45-55mil households in the US are occupied by gun owners. That would put the number at closer to 18%. Not 1%.
OH, and historical fact, only 12% of the population was actively supporting the revolution against King George.

Now, as for Violence per capita - the most recent numbers I found, internationally, that were publicly available were from 2006. - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

I would like to note, that the rate listed on site I am pointing to, lists Australia at 17, and Oz at having a rate of 5.8.

The matching statistics from the FBI on USA - Listed it at 5.8 p100k or 58/per 1Mil for 2006, and 5.0 in 2009. That is Murders and non-neglegant manslaughter for the FBI statistics, so it might be a little high by other nation's recording standards. Or Perhaps really lite if said country counts vehicle deaths as murders.
(that number pulled from this chart - http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_01.html)

Thought you might actually want to see by the numbers, just how crazy we Amuur'kns are in comparison to you down under with your stricter and more sane laws.

{Section Edited in color - Thanks I-KP for the Note - was not my intent to skew - number }

[I-KP]

You should probably look at those numbers again.

[Swift]

Not to mention compare death by firearms compared to other methods, since that is the relevant point for this discussion since we have what I consider far saner gun control laws.

Edit: Additionally, as I-KP has stated already, what is declared a violent crime differs between countries so a direct comparison on that rate is less reliable than something like homicide.

[gonz.0]

Edit: Additionally, as I-KP has stated already, what is declared a violent crime differs between countries so a direct comparison on that rate is less reliable than something like homicide.

The site was on violent crime, the numbers that were listed, were murders.
"Crime Statistics > Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country"

Which is why I chose them, Homicide being what the subject was when I was responding. Not just homicide by guns. My point on the side, is that if you want to kill, you will find a way, gun, knife, club, whatever. It's the person.

EDIT - Found numbers on Gun Violence for the discussion -
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... 00-000-pop

[Adanu]

You do not try and debate anyway Adanu. All you do is hop into threads to snipe at me.

More power to you, though, if that's all you can manage.

I'm all for actual debate, such as the one thread asking for ideas. I don't deal with biased attacks. You called the US 'gun culture' batshit insane. Where in that is there any room for debate? I'm not going to change your mind with that attitude.

Oh, you mean that ideas thread where it took you 5 pages of refusing to elaborate on what you were actually arguing until someone that wasn't me told you they had no idea what you were arguing?

Yeah, stellar example of your willingness to debate there

Because SSM actually called me out in a way that was respectful and showed me people were actually listening.

As it is, there's no denying that the US has a high murder rate far as I know... but trying to compare the US to other countries with our culture is like comparing a grape to a watermelon, then complaining the watermelon has too many seeds.

[Rumple C]

Watermellons do have too many seeds!

[Swift]

My point on the side, is that if you want to kill, you will find a way, gun, knife, club, whatever. It's the person.

It is easier to kill with a gun than it is with a knife, or a club, or a plank of wood or any other kind of weapon that requires you to be in close proximity to your target.

Stabbing someone is slow and is not guaranteed to kill. While it can be argued that shooting someone is not guaranteed to kill either, I would bet my house that most people could discharge, say, a 10 round pistol magazine far faster than they could stab someone 10 times. Additionally guns are far easier to re-target than a knife is.

If people want to kill, they will kill. I do not see why making it harder for a killer to take a life by restricting what weapons he can choose from is a bad thing (and the only way putting armed guards in schools makes it harder to kill a student is if you believe difficulty and risk are the same thing. Something may be incredibly easy to do while still carrying a great deal of risk, while the inverse also applies).

Additionally, the data you have used for Australia is far, far out of date. I refer you to the Australian Institute of Criminology 2011 Crime Statistics (Warning, link leads to 5 meg PDF file) that pegs the Homicide rate of Australia at 1.2 per 100,000 for 2010. Gun use in homicide has dropped from 31% in 1994-1995 (the year of the Port Arthur massacre, previous year was 21%) to just 13% in 2009-2010. For what its worth, homicide is determined as murder and manslaughter, be they intentional or accidental.

As it is, there's no denying that the US has a high murder rate far as I know... but trying to compare the US to other countries with our culture is like comparing a grape to a watermelon, then complaining the watermelon has too many seeds.

So, again, who should they be compared to then? Why should their statistics not be compared to other developed, western nations?

[Rumple C]

Given that the 2nd amendment is trumpeted as right to bear arms and maintain your freedom...

Consider this.

The gun lobby funds politicians who in turn back the 2nd. This in turn allows them to keep selling weapons with the potential to massacre at a moments notice. There is a difference in weapons that can be used for "defense" and one that offensive (in so many ways) by their very nature. The public does not need these weapons. Please, stick with your handguns and rifles. Leave the automatic weapons to your military. Because ultimately it is the children and innocents who pay the price so the gun manufacturers manipulate public perception to keep the profits flowing. Every bit as evil and disgusting as the public manipulations of the tabac lobby.

Earlier this year (2012), the Atlantic reports, the NSSF (National Sport Shooting Federation) fought hard to stop the town's (Newtown) authorities from bringing in more stringent restrictions on gun ownership and shooting, arguing that swimming was far more dangerous. Since Friday, it has been silent.

Fuck you evil gun lobby people, fuck you. (and yes, I am also giving you the finger tabac manufacturers)

[Stormseeker]

ahh rumple he killed those kids with pistols...every last one of them. The semi automatic assault rifle was in the trunk of the car. There has been so much bad information at the begging of this shooting that eventually heads will roll. Or more likely there will be a mass migration of litigation against every one.

Not confused on the subject by far, there are a couple of states that as of 2011 that don't report stats to the fbi and arkansas was one of them that doesnt have a difference in how they died with a gun. Something that obama did right during this is a order on getting all federal and state agencies on board together in their information gathering.

And we are unique, we have a southern neighbor that is full of corruption and death that bleeds over to us in the form of gang related and random violence, with a estimated illegal alien population of 12 million(population of your country is roughly 5mil?)...dont get me wrong the mass majority of them just want a better life and i don't blame them one bit...especially since i have been to mexico a couple of times.

And yes i need as much fire power as i can afford, with the power of the 2nd i can protect all the rest. lol funny enough the recent law that new york passed made all the law enforcement officalls mad because the clips in their weapons are now illegal. Now you got them wanting to make a exception to them and ones that have retired.