Speeds and armor

[Zelknolf]

There are no spell components of negligible cost for divine spellcasters. There is only divine foci (holy symbols cost money, but are not consumed), foci (like silver bowls and ivory strips), and expensive material components (usually piles and piles of incense). It's wizards and sorcerers who must collect beetle turds and belly button lint to work magic.

[Rotku]

Well, then Zelk, in light of that, let me rephrase my question...

Really? How would that work for arcane casters with things that cost a fraction of a gold coin to buy? will it just be like ale and suffer heavy inflation? Are the scripts and everything all worked out?

Better? [can't decide what smiley best fits here]

[danielmn]

No scripts, or scripts associated. I just made the items, item descriptions, item costs, item placeholder as far as looks in the packs, ect. Actual scripts will have to be associated I suppose for items to dissappear from inventory when spells are cast for spell components...spell focci just need to be associated with the spell so that the spell can be cast. (ie, you cast, the engine looks for the prereq foci, sees that you do, don't have it, spell goes off/doesn't). Unfortuneatly, I am no scriptor.

as for the negligable components for arcanists, we can merely hit up a stack. Ie. the butchers in silverymoon, I did a bunch of food that has charges/uses...other items IG are like that as well, salt, pepper ect, so you could sell a ten use eyelash of the gopher for a gold, and it be useable ten times, or some such, so they're actually a silver a peice.

[Blindhamsterman]

should be noted that near enough all cheap wizard spells components are covered by the 'spell component pouch' item. It's the rare things like a 100gp pearl needed for identify (covered in our scroll cost already, but not the spell) or the arrow required for a fire arrow etc.

[danielmn]

Again, sorry to be off topic, But Blinds solutions seems the better alternative. I believe previous discussion on the topic we discounted the neglagible items. Implementation could go either scripted, or player trust, with items being used at the discretion of players chucking the necc. item after spell. I find many spells that require use of the more expensive components would likely have to have DM oversight anyway, such as raises, rezzes, scrying ect. Many of the more applicable spells without dm have either negligable spell components that could be covered in a catch all component pouch or through focii, an example being the Shield Other clerical spell...atm nothing is used for the spell, but phb state that a focii of platinum rings be used, one for caster and one for recipient. I can possibly go through the spells in the near future and make a listing of the spells that have more expensive components that would see use non-dm-wise to narrow down a list of spells that useable components would be needed for. Again, scripting could be used, or we could just trust the players that when they use the more exp. components without dm oversight that the players use, weather by function, or tossing said component away in trash bin or fire. But, I think we stray from the OP, so a seperate thread is warrented for further discussion. I'll try to see if I can find the magic component thread...

and found.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 11&t=43500

I think any further discussion on the topic would do well there.

[Blindhamsterman]

I have replied to your post in that thread. Think we're on to something though!

[Melody]

Here are my two cents on this matter.

SwordSaintMusashi
Out of curiosity, and after reading through 6 pages of this thread in confusion, what IS the change that is proposed anymore? I have gathered from everything that it is: Slowing Heavy Armor Wearers (TM).

That's about what I've gathered as well. The reasons for this are as quoted.

danielmn
It's an extrapulation that because light/medium armour wearers aren't getting the benefits they should be getting within the system due to feats being borked by obsidian, Heavy armour wearers should be slowed so that there is more balance between the light/medium and heavy armour wearers since the borkedness can't be fixed.

That isn't a fix.. that's a punishment. If we can't fix what is broken with light/medium armor that is unfortunate, but it isn't sufficient reason to reduce the movement speed of those wearing heavy armor.

Ithildur
Attempting to escape via double move withdraw with fullplate = 40feet/round
Double move with leather armor = 60 feet/round
Full run with fullplate = 60 feet/round (heavy armor run speed at x3, not x4)
Full run with leather armor = 120 feet/round

At least this is a well thought out argument. I only see a few problems with it.

My biggest reason is that you're talking about attempting to escape via double movement speed. You say why is that a problem? Well, the mobs in our game are set to move at one speed. There is no x3 or x4 speed so what you're suggesting we implement is an across the board reduction in speed for wearing armor. At that point the pen and paper argument doesn't really work... because this isn't pen and paper. Mobs will still be moving at full speed and players will be moving at reduced speed wether they are in combat or out of it. We already reduce speed by encumberance and I think that is about as balanced for an online computer game as we need to get.

My second reason is this: If those in heavy armor move at -10% or more (I think I heard 30% at one point) movement speed, we have those in plate mail walking slowly while the rest of us have to wait for them to catch up. I don't know about you but waiting for Frank the Tank to keep up with the rest of us light/medium armor wearers wouldn't really help me enjoy the game any better. Is this really about my enjoyment? Yes.. yes it is and I'm not playing a plate wearer.

In conclusion.. because like me you've gotten bored and skipped to the end. This isn't about what happens in pen and paper.. because this isn't pen and paper. Let's try to fix the broken light/medium armor if we can and not penalize the entire community to waiting on slow moving tanks.

[Blindhamsterman]

That isn't a fix.. that's a punishment. If we can't fix what is broken with light/medium armor that is unfortunate, but it isn't sufficient reason to reduce the movement speed of those wearing heavy armor.

The benefit that we're trying reinstate (or as you say, the broken thing we wish to fix) is that light armour doesn't reduce movement speed. It's probably the only real insentive to use light armour in the game other than from an RP or asthetic reasoning.

[Melody]

I thought the benefit of any armor was that it increased your armor class. Thereby making you harder to hit. It's not a benefit to me wearing my light armor to see someone else walking more slowly. Since the mobs are still moving at the same speed.

[Blindhamsterman]

if the change was made it effects mobs as well, if it doesn't, there's little point in it.

Benefit of heavy armour is extremely high protection (through high ac bonus)
e.g. heavily armoured warriors blocking up a bottle neck.

Benefit of light armour is Manoeuvrability and some protection (best being chain shirt)
e.g. the swift rogue or ranger that has control of the battlefield due to being able to move about more.

from a game perspective currently, there is no reason for anyone to wear light armour unless they need to sneak (in such situations armour of any kind is generally bad as they all have penalties) or they cast arcane spells.

but yes, as has been said many many times, for a change like this to be worth doing it really needs to effect all heavy armour users (NPC and PC alike) and ideally other speed changes should be made as well if possible to better represent other creatures speeds.

[danielmn]

Cohesively....

We are talking about slowing down H armour wearers now, possibly leaving medium alone, as discussed here. http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 8&start=15

work related is here.

A. Figure out how to transpose a negative movement onto armour.
B. Going through all Heavy sets of armour in the pallete for each server to place the property.
C. Figuring out the Strength solution and how to place (if we want a ceratin Strength score to overcome the encumbrance or not as Mr. D stated, if not skip step).
D. Placing strength solution on all armours in pallete for each server. (again, skip step if str solution is unwanted)
E. Testing to make sure these changes take within the shops themselves, or if the shops will also need to be edited. (Changes to blueprints of heavy armour should auto-update stores, not certain though. After blueprints are effectively updated, the stores will need to be checked, I'm thinking though that this should be a quick step, as the changes to the blueprints should register within the stores)
F. Going through all creature blueprints (both Monsters, and NPC's) making sure the Heavy armours the creatures are wearing aren't default, but custom, to ensure that the monsters that do wear armour are also getting the speed reduction.
G. Replacing the current armour of each PC that wears H-armour with a correct vrs, correcting the blueprints of the armours on file, recreating the armours of those that aren't.

All of that is NEEDED work in order to make the transition from the heavy armour we have now to the heavy armour that has slowed movement.

An Alternative work

H. Correcting the speeds of monsters/npc's in toolset to more acureatly portray correct movement of spawns (all monsters need be checked, not just those wearing H armour), thereby greater representing movement within the monsters themselves. (this could pose problems as previously mentioned. increasing to canon the speeds of spawns I think would lead to more low level deaths, armour or no armour. There are monsters that are capable of outrunning even the fastest of us. For instance the Winter Wolf moves at a 50ft base speed, far beyond the base speed of any PC. Now, if we are simply aiming to nerf heavy armour wearers, the change is not needed, which is what I am gathering is wanted/needed, so H can be abandoned. IF this change is made, running should not be an option for any PC from these monsters, because they can run too. Your base is 30, theirs is 50, you run 2-4X that, so can they. So the converse of the statement, "My pc should be able to outrun your pc because mine is wearing light and yours is wearing Heavy" is "My PC may be wearing heavy armour and yours may be wearing light, but neither of us can outrun a winter wolf, worg, frost giant, werewolf in wolf form ect. This change in effect will make any low levels meeting one of these beasts a splat fest, since low levels RELY on the option of running away from combat...quite the conundrum.)

And after all that work is done.....It will effect around a total of 4-8 PC's IG at the moment, though probably affecting more down the road... I personally know of 4 that I am positive wear H armour, and there is a possibility of 2 more that I am not sure on, one could wear H or M, the other is not IG all that much. However, the swap also will likely discourage H armour wearers for future PC's, not sure on that though. Mind you, as long as this is the best way to go about it, I'm all for seeing someone implement it. Further discussion of a PC's strength score, and at what str is the movement negated, if at all, probably needs to be had.

[danielmn]

Benefit of light armour is Manoeuvrability and some protection (best being chain shirt)
e.g. the swift rogue or ranger that has control of the battlefield due to being able to move about more.

And technically, that is incorrect. The best light armour one could have would be a mithril breasplate or mithril chain shirt, as any armour made of mithril is considered one category lighter (medium armours become light as far as rules, heavy become medium), but I get where you're going. They both have comparable AC's/dex allowance, the breastplate would still have an acp attached of 1, while the shirt wouldn't.(mithril shirt being a 4ac/6dex, breastplate being a 5ac/5dex, so dex dependant)

[Regalis]

I don't think it's an issue of strength, merely supposed to represent the fact that you trade mobility for protection. If strength could overcome the loss of mobility, then I'm sure NFL players would always wear the knee braces and flak vests. I had an ex-defensive end as a neighbor for awhile. I assure you that they are plenty strong. The guy did 50 reps of 350 lbs on the bench like it was nothing... and he'd been out of the league 6 years and lost a ton of weight.

Knee injuries are one of the most common ways for players to end up out for the season. I doubt anyone wants a torn ACL. So if you don't give anything up for the protection, why don't they all wear them?

Mind you, those are very expensive, modern engineered and lightweight knee braces, nothing like a full suit of heavy armor. It ain't strength. I'm sure he'd have squatted even more if we had a machine that could go any higher.

As for implementation, there are less intrusive technical implementations. No blueprints need to be changed for either creatures or items. The question is whether or not you guys want to do it. I don't have a dog in this fight.

[danielmn]

*nods* I'm inclined to agree with the str/mobility assessment. it's not a str movement decrease...merly a fact that with this armour, you are going to move at less of a pace because of the restrictiveness of the armours movement. I can buy that. As for a work around, I'll listen, though I have little scripting knowledge myself, I am sure someone who does would be interested to hear....

[Melody]

Regalis
I don't think it's an issue of strength, merely supposed to represent the fact that you trade mobility for protection. If strength could overcome the loss of mobility, then I'm sure NFL players would always wear the knee braces and flak vests.. ....Mind you, those are very expensive, modern engineered and lightweight knee braces, nothing like a full suit of heavy armor. It ain't strength. I'm sure he'd have squatted even more if we had a machine that could go any higher.

You're talking about a dex bonus, which isn't what we're talking about right now, mobility and speed are not the same thing. Max bonus to dex from plate mail is a plus one if I remember right. So no matter what your dexterity is you aren't going above that bonus. Hence football players don't all wear knee bracers because they loose the ability to evade as well. Not that it makes them move slower once they are put into motion.