NWN2: Deviations from 3.5

[Ithildur]

John, listen, I hear what you're saying about not having as many non combat options without a DM on, but that's got nothing to do 'taking away' HPs. If you play a low HD class anyway, you really are better off with rolled HPs.

JMecha, I've also thought about that too. I know it's not turn based and it's not pnp exactly, but we try to make it as close to pnp as possible. Going down that path of reasoning, we should have less harsh death penalties because of the nature of online gaming, lag, semi real time combat, etc.

We're talking about giving nearly DOUBLE HPs for high HD classes (who btw stand to suffer the least from lag and such issues, with the auto counterattack feature). Not a few extra HPs, or even something like NWN1's system which gave better HPs than pnp. Double. It's like playing the IE games on Easy mode, or Impossible mode in reverse; either way it's a significant shift. If we want something closer to the vanilla nwn2 game experience that's more accomodating, well, that's not hard to find. The uniqueness of alfa is that it's NOT vanilla nwn2, and a big part of the appeal is that it's closer to pnp, otherwise why have all the haks and 2da fixes etc that we do? Sure, not everything can be done just like pnp, but imo max HPs is definitely one of the elements that makes the game feel hack and slashy, makes the game even less balanced, as well as turning canon NPCs into wimps.

I don't recall people complaining about alfa1's HPs system back in the day.

Alright, that's enough from me on this topic...

[Rotku]

All I can say to that, Ithildur, is:: "Roll up a bard/rogue and try to do what you did in PnP".

My only PC to ever make it past level 2 has been a bard. And trust me, I have had hundreds of PCs over the years

[Ithildur]

One more thought on the max HP issue. When a group of PCs includes low lvls and high lvls, this 'feature' of NWN2 makes the HP gulf much wider than it would've been in nwn1/alfa1.

A sample mixed lvl group in nwn1/alfa1:

lvl2 fighter HP (without con bonuses): 20 HPs
lvl 10 fighter HP (without con bonuses): 72 HPs or so (30 max from lvls 1 to 3, average of about 6/lvl for lvls 4 to 10)
lvl 5 wizard HP (w/o con): 18 HPs

same group in NWN2:
lvl2 fighter HP (without con bonus) 20 HPs
lvl 10 fighter HP (without con bonus) 100 HPs no questions asked.
lvl 5 wiz HP (w/o con): 20 HPs

Imo it's not a small factor, the extra 30 HPs gained by the high lvl warrior in nwn2. This would mean it's that much more difficult to balance encounters and challenges for DMs when dealing with a group that has high and low lvls (the reality is that happens all the time in alfa, unlike pnp). If the DM opts to make the monsters (say an enemy spellcaster) do 30 more dmg in order to become a threat to the beefier NWN2 lvl 10 fighter, that 30 dmg difference is enough to insta kill the other two. It's already a challenge to balance encounters for mixed lvl groups; the max HPs makes the gulf even larger and can make it more difficult.

[Veilan]

HPs are really a non-issue. Having no randomisation is a plus, and I don't think our DMs will opt to increase damage numbers, which, mechanically, is rather tough to do. A level 8 spell caster casts the same dice for a fireball no matter how many HP the targets have. What the HP do is devalue direct damage spells while at the same time upgrading enchanting magics and the like. All spellcasters, players and NPCs, can take that into consideration.

There's no persuasive benefit here that makes it at all expediant to try to get around what the game has given us. Add to that that we have a "horse out of the barn" issue by having existing PCs. There's really no conclusive advantage to be had here.

And don't get me wrong, my personal opinion would probably be something along the lines of max HP first 3 levels, then average HP every level thereafter. Just not worth the effort to push for it.

[Riotnrrd]

Having no randomisation is a plus

Why?

A level 8 spell caster casts the same dice for a fireball no matter how many HP the targets have. What the HP do is devalue direct damage spells while at the same time upgrading enchanting magics and the like.

Can you please explain what you mean here?

There's no persuasive benefit here that makes it at all expediant to try to get around what the game has given us.

Pillar of ALFA 1: D&D. ALFA uses Dungeons & Dragons ("D&D").
Pillar of ALFA 4: Permadeath. ALFA has permadeath for player characters.

Add to that that we have a "horse out of the barn" issue by having existing PCs.

Good point, the most important for me so far. Counter point: the longer we go without fixing the problem, the worse it will get. Right now we have maybe 5-10 PCs above 5th level, AFAIK.

There's really no conclusive advantage to be had here.

Disagree.

[Riotnrrd]

AL just mentioned something to me, that max HPs are also used for all creatures. Is that true?

There are a lot of obvious and serious negative consequences if this is the case, some of which Ithildur has already raised...

[Ulyetia]

I personally see both sides of the coin on the HP issue.

On one hand, you have the issue that it isnt even close to PnP rules. Unless of course you play in a group who "House-Rules" everything they dont like

On the other hand, you have the issue that it is harder to balance in a CRPG with too many forms of difference. Yes, the big difference between the fighter level 10 with non-maxed HP, and fighter level 10 with maxed HP is significant. But, even with randomly rolling HP, someone somewhere is likely to get max or pretty close to max on a lot of rolls and be very close to the maximum possible HP regardless.

Then what happens? It happens a few times, and quite possibly keeps those characters alive whilst others would die. Then spawns and NPCs get their stats increased to keep the challenge there for the few characters who don't seem to ever die, which then hurts the people who do not have immense health pools. Having everyone on relativly equal footing when at the level the Dev Team and DM Team want people engaging with spawns makes it far easier to balance.

Maybe I've spent too much time in the world of la la land though

[HEEGZ]

AL just mentioned something to me, that max HPs are also used for all creatures. Is that true?

There are a lot of obvious and serious negative consequences if this is the case, some of which Ithildur has already raised...

Yes they have max HPs, it was mentioned in an earlier comment. Any changes to PC hit points will require that the person making those changes also change every monster as well. As the system works fine as-is, there are a lot more pressing things we could be working on besides this. All of the Live, Beta, and Alpha servers are in need of builders and DMs. This just seems like wasted effort now that we have been Live for over a year. Veilan touched on some of the problems already, so I won't elaborate. If anyone has time to toolset, I would be more than happy to point you to the places that have been requesting help.

[Riotnrrd]

The biggest consequence is that all spellcasters are taking a big hit, and we're seriously changing the balance of the game. Doesn't that give pause, for the charter or the canon rules?
Is it strictly the amount of work involved, or do people just not care?

[HEEGZ]

The biggest consequence is that all spellcasters are taking a big hit, and we're seriously changing the balance of the game. Doesn't that give pause, for the charter or the canon rules?
Is it strictly the amount of work involved, or do people just not care?

I don't think many people find it horribly unbalanced. Also, I think it is both of the things you mentioned. Not enough people care, and it's too much work to be worth the effort. There are plenty willing to play, but very few ready to do the hard work in the background.

While in principle I agree that it would be nice to have everything based on random hit dice, at this point it seems too late in the game to make the change. Perhaps if there are ever plenty of volunteers seeking work to do for ALFA we can revisit this, test it, and implement it. For now it seems an enormous task, when it is not a broken game mechanic.

I guess I view it as ALFA's house rule for NWN2, maxed hit dice for all.

[Riotnrrd]

For now it seems an enormous task

Perhaps not enormous

when it is not a broken game mechanic.

I guess I disagree here... I feel pretty strongly it is a broken game mechanic.

Allow me to rephrase... would anyone OBJECT if the hitpoints were random for PCs and monsters?

[HEEGZ]

I wouldn't object no. However if this was truly broken, we would have a year's worth of player complaints about it. Just because it may not meet some ideal does not mean it is broken.

If you are planning on revising every single monster, I have a list somewhere of the broken ones that need to be fixed.

[Rotku]

Ah, but what you don't know - there have been a years worth of player complaints. It's just that our elite censoring squad have been... silencing them.

[Dorn]

Don't make me 'moderate' you Rotku, state secrets and all.

2c

I would prefer the ALFA1 random vs the ALFA2 maxed.

I like the fact that it makes (particularly) warrior classes more varied and therefore drives a variety in weapon/skill/feat/multiclass/ability choices. Both at character creastion (becasue you MIGHT not get max all the way) and

This was great in alfa 1 when my barb PC got all the top rolls and hence went on the offensive feat and mobility wise, and matuesz' ftr char didn't, so went defensive feats parry and heavier armour. Made for a better party dynamic than two dreadnaughts.

[mr duncan]

Id be one of the loudest complaints. Dice rolls are for in-game actions, at the levelup screen I am spending points and dislike anything random happening. Getting rid of random HP was one of the best things to happen to DnD in a long long time.


Someone mentioned they didnt remember people complaining back in nwn1ALFA. I did I hated anything random during character creation or levelup and I still do. I hated everything about it. Now you have someone to remember who hates it.

Another example of "Gee, how fun it was when I got good HP and someone else didnt" isnt going to help convince me either. You want different characters, theres plenty of differing feats and class combos. You dont need valriable HP to make you "different"


If youd like less HP on your PC, Im sure a DM will oblige.



J