NWN2 Climates

[Riotnrrd]

Hi folks;

Curmudgeon pointed out Wynna was working on climate scripts for some areas in TSM.

I'd like to propose we create some ACR scripts for weather effects (cold, heat), and tie to items and spells (endure elements comes to mind).

Thoughts?

[Brokenbone]

First thought is: homegrown or PnP style? PnP has an assload of weather effects which are pretty wild in their variety.

See link:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm

If going PnP style, there's ridiculous numbers of variables to consider, take the simplest example of "it's raining out."

Rain

Rain reduces visibility ranges by half, resulting in a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks. It has the same effect on flames, ranged weapon attacks, and Listen checks as severe wind.

Severe Wind

In addition to automatically extinguishing any unprotected flames, winds of this magnitude cause protected flames (such as those of lanterns) to dance wildly and have a 50% chance of extinguishing these lights. Ranged weapon attacks and Listen checks are at a -4 penalty. This is the velocity of wind produced by a gust of wind spell.

Rain, you can see, could mean a LOAD of scripting to do. Spot, Search, Listen checks, and ranged weapon (but not ranged touch, like per spell) attacks, all hit by -4. Check for presence of a light source item in the offhand and check resrefs or something for items with a light effect, and somehow distinguish torches and candles (100% extinguish) from lanterns (50%) from glowing items (0%). Check for flaming placeables in the rain too, like torches along your city walls or campfires, ha ha. Cost/benefit may mean "leave it well alone."

...

If instead just looking for maybe a homegrown extreme environments script, the old NWN1 Ulias scripts (Ulias Extreme Environments) I think would do a point of fire damage in the desert every few seconds (or minutes?) unless wearing some "UES_heat" tagged item or a point of cold in a glacial region unless wearing "UES_cold" stuff. Ulias system basically covered heat, cold on the easy end of the scale, and altitude and drowning on the harder end of the scale, but nothing else that you could view as weather, like strong winds messing up skills & combat, hailstorms hurting you a little, snow hindering land movement, and things of that nature.

Anyhow, yeah, that's the "off the cuff" thought... if someone's planning to follow PnP rules, wow, I salute the effort, and can imagine people using weather tactically (good to sneak up on people in the rain, but better cut a throat than try to shoot the unwary sentry!), or cursing the weather if a plan that started in the snow, neutralizing enemy archers somewhat, instead sees the skies clear and your melee line having to wade through snowdrifts, SLOWLY, as archers pick 'em off. Again, would be cool, but it might be a very tall order.

If instead it's just "cold out, wear enough clothes or suffer damage" or "hot out, stay out of metal armor or suffer damage", okay too, and there's existing systems that may be portable.

[Riotnrrd]

Good comments;

Was thinking more of UIias' extreme environments stuff for temperatures / fatigue, etc, at least in the very short term... but rain / snow stuff might be possible too...

Would weather systems (non-extreme ranges, like rain or snow or clear as noted above) typically be regional in nature? IE its going to rain or snow across most of TSM, unless other area specific scripts take effect and override server global settings?

This sounds like an interesting problem, one I'd like to be involved in. I'd appreciate any comments from people with experience with Ulias' weather scripts, or knowledge of current ALFA weather stuff (status, problems, etc)...

[oldgrayrogue]

If weather related damage or skill effect scipts are going to be implemented I would suggest that at a minimum, items of clothing etc that can counteract the effects be made available as well. My experience with these type of scripts on another server, especially if they are implemented server wide, is that 1) people just stay indoors resulting in a vastly empty server 2) only those who can magically counteract the effects venture away from town or 3) it becomes a huge drag on PC resources and time just to counteract the scripted effects so you don't die.

On an RP server, I always assume scripts are added to aid in or foster additional RP. IMO scripts like weather effects, fatigue, resting and eating requirements and the like actually end up detracting from the RP. It becomes like an annoying background function that interrupts the flow of RP that players figure out how to counteract or avoid, at least in my experience.

Conversely, I feel the entire gamut of PnP weather, fatigue etc effects can add tremendously to the RP in DM run events. In a DM run event, the difference is that the weather and its effects can become part of the story rather than something that exists in the backgraound despite the story. Its when those effects are scripted 24/7 that they start to become a drag. If it is not going to add over all to the RP experience I think we could do just as well without it.

[mr duncan]

On an RP server, I always assume scripts are added to aid in or foster additional RP. IMO scripts like weather effects, fatigue, resting and eating requirements and the like actually end up detracting from the RP. It becomes like an annoying background function that interrupts the flow of RP that players figure out how to counteract or avoid, at least in my experience.

Im half way with you except that with my current PC I have a lot of occasions to see people RPing the cold.

Ive seen less than 5 people shiver from the cold or retreat from the glacier because the weather was to rough. Some with no cold protection at all wanted to strip down and get playful right there in the snow. Others fippantly sat down in the coldest regions of our server in their travelers clothes... had a handful of trail mix and a pleasant chat.

A fort check or taking a cold damage every minute would really make people treat the cold like it was threatening. I know this because it has worked before. The TFN server in ALFA1 was exactly like this. People took time to be prepared to hike into the spine of the world, they never just took off. They had to take off their thin magic cloak of charisma and wear a thick wool cloak, or they had a spell or ability to LET them trounce out in the snow heedless.

Same goes for our NWN1 Anauroch. People treated it like a REAL desert because it had scripts to burn you for being outside without magic protection or bedouin gear. You travelled at night and looked for shelter in the day if you didnt have the proper gear. Without them even our "Elite RPers" would in no time be walking across the desert in full armor saying "Damn, its hot"... but WITH the script they went indoors and/or wasted money and time on protection from the elements.

Right now the only people concerned with weather are the Aurilians. Oddly enough the IC setting should have the bulk of the world worried about it while the elemental cults are liberated in those difficult places/times... yet theres scant worry about RPing weather from anyone /but/ them. Thats some backwards RP that would be righted by some weather effects. The Silver Marches weather is intended to be an antagonist on par with its monsters.

Endure elements will once again become a much sought spell. Clerics with the cold domain will actually be different from normal people standing on icy peaks. People might even pay money for special gear to survive out in the wilderness.


Very glad this is being worked on. Thanks Wynna



J

[oldgrayrogue]

You make some valid points about the lack of RPing weather effects Mr. D. I guess I have seen more players RP their toons to react to the rain or cold than you have, but the point is still taken that such RP should be happening. I guess my point is that the entire graphic setting of a PW is just a visual aid to the RP for me. When you don't have actual change in seasons or daily changes in the weather, a scripted system for weather effects can be just as artificial as no system IMO. I have hiked up a snowy peak in the spring and its down right pleasant =) Anyway, a DM can have a winter storm blow through and take weather effects into account in a controlled fashion. A script -- unless it has variations for seasonal weather patterns built in which I admit would be pretty freaking cool -- just applies the effect and sort of "forces" people to RP a certain way or die. I personally dislike the feel of that. As a practical matter it just may make players avoid those areas which seems counterproductive to building them =) In terms of swapping that magic cloak for a wool cloak, I suppose a lot of toons would just through the wool layer over the magic claok, but that isn't possible in our virtual gameworld either. My main objection is to server wide weather effects. If it is confined to only ice caves or the glacier during a randomly generated storm I suppose I don't have any objection to it. Otherwise DM control of these effects is preferable to me.

[Riotnrrd]

Great commentary!

I appreciate the input, and would be ecstatic to have continued interest as things move along...

Thanks!

[dob85y]

I like the sound of weather effects. Anything that brings us closer to PnP, which is one of our major goals. Weather, food, sleep all the small anoying things that may make a main stream game unpopular or "too hard" to win make all the difference when done well.

[Brokenbone]

We know how to do UES stuff, but has anyone ever seen a clear guideline in PnP that says "you take damage in these environments if you're over/underdressed"?

Darksun in AD&D had metal armor rules in the desert. We aren't playing that.

D20 SRD has some minor "storm" related nonlethal or lethal damage conditions, like if you're hammered with golf ball sized hail.

Maybe there's other spots that simply say "if you're standing naked in a snowbank, you take XXXX damage", but I think it's simply left to DM discretion. Our UES stuff I'm not saying is unbalanced, and it does introduce a sense of urgency in a realtime game, but it might not trace its roots to anyone's thinking except, well, the author's.

Still, it could be used in the WORST OF THE WORST spots, possibly with a one-screen radius all around it of text triggers indicating "it is damn hot ahead" or more particularly "it is damn hot Northwest of here" so people don't AT into a death trap. Or used in dungeons with abandon, heh.

Anyhow, you'll also note that many, many of the weather effects in PnP are tied to seasons, which ALFA's never done well, that is, we don't build four versions of a server and say "NOW IT IS SPRINGTIME" and use the really green version, or "NOW IT IS AUTUMN" and use orangey-gold trees everywhere.

Additionally, onscreen you can only see so much weather data, absent a system of server messages or weather-widgets for your own checkups. That is, wind would never be visible, nor precise temperature, unless the server either on its own or on prompting told a player "This area is suffering from 12mph SW winds, is 54 degrees Farenheit, with light precipitation (rain)." BORING.

That being said, it may be possible to just isolate a couple of obvious weather effects, give them a smattering of easily simulated PnP properties, and leave it at that. I'm thinking of rain and snow, both of which should be easy enough to notice on screen, but which you'd never worry if it was just a little rain, or a wild hurricane, same goes for snow in terms of light snow vs. horrible blizard i.e., no severity to worry about, just "it is raining" or "it is snowing." The skill and ranged weapon penalties could be imposed, and if really desired for snow, moverates could be cut (the "2 squares to go 1 square" in PnP snow tells me "50% moverate" may be the closest approximation).

These kinds of basic, mild adjustments can present some pretty significant tactical challenges or advantages, depending on what you're needing to do that day. It helps encourage some roleplay choices for tactics, possibly, as well. That is, someone who's kind of crappy at being your sneaky scout, may feel a little more confident about his ability to get close to the kobold lair if it's pitch dark (which might be a separate "environments" discussion) and raining. Alternately, if you've got two archers in the party whose key role is to... well, do something with their bows against a 100% melee force (like a pack of worgs), the bottom can kind of fall out from under them if just before they start execution of some worg-slaying plan, it starts to snow.

Anyhow, weather roleplay is probably enhanced when there's some numerical "stuff" behind it, even if we can't do everything with environments. Sneaking up the middle of a road is just as easy as sneaking along the treeline, can't do much about that (unless every road has a trigger drawn on it with onenter -10 hide, which is taken away on exiting the trigger)... but if there's a universal outdoor condition that means sometimes you're going to have an easier time as a sneaky, or harder time as a sentry, well, at least that cuts equally across all outdoors PCs & NPCs.

Far more than 2 cents at this time, but I'd say that carefully reviewing how harsh UES is and seeing if it might get RARE use in the worst environments is one thing to do, but seeing if "anything" could easily tie to precipitation (even if it's not everything seen in PnP) might be cool.

[Riotnrrd]

DMG 3.5 pg 302,303

Cold Dangers: unprotected PC in cold weather below 40 degrees must make fort save every 10 mins (DC15 +1 per previous check) or take 1d6 subdual (survival skill can give bonus to check). Characters w/ winter clothing only need check 1 / hour. Further if failed save PC is fatigued. Extreme cold below -20 degrees 1d6 of actual damage (no save), plus 1d4 subdual, same as above. Metal armor are affected as if by chill metal spell. If PC becomes unconscious due to subdual damage, the damage continues, but this time is lethal.

Heat dangers: above 90 fort check as above. Wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort gives a -4 on the saves (though survival skill gives bonus). Unconscious PCs start taking lethal damage. Taking any damage, considered to be heatstroke, are fatigued. Over 140 degrees is lethal damage. Other penalties and bonuses identical to the above.

Pretty sure many of the higher elevations in TSM would qualify for cold damage... dunno of any places that are hot, but suspect they exist.

If we ever get ALFA wide weather seasons, would be even better... but for now, just extreme hot / cold.

[DMyles]

and endure elements would negate all damage I assume

[Brokenbone]

Perfect, I was just looking @ SRD (free online) not DMG (less free online, depends where you look).

I do wonder though how you'd reasonably represent temperature on screen, except for warning messages like "This area is cold/extremely cold/hot/extremely hot." Those might not be constants though, they're results that would be spit out depending on the dice rolls for that day in that region, based on these tables: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm

Might have to have teams pick whether they view their turf as generally cold, temperate, or desert to get into one of the columns of that table for good, and tune weather tables from there. TSM might be "cold" though BG might be "temperate", which may make building/scripting life easy in TSM, but tougher in BG without having clear seasons, i.e., temperate regions in winter are on the cold end of things, summer is apparently warm (which must mean "moderate" on the table which could trip into "hot" if there's a heat wave). Would that mean four times a year a temperate server's weather table scripts would be kicked up or down, and an announcement post made in the forum, like "IT IS WINTER IN BALDUR'S GATE"..?

Anyhow, note that weather affects the entire outdoors, so even people walking the streets of Silverymoon, if just wearing their skivvies on a cold winter's night, could keel over dead quick enough. Still, I would expect the same if running around Toronto at midnight in January in just Speedos so hey.

[mr duncan]

and endure elements would negate all damage I assume

Thats the idea. Didnt you play in TFN in the old days? Even once?

You cast your spell and went out, when you failed a fort check you were assinged a point of damage and your spell eats it. That easy.

There was a spellcaster of some type for a while in TFN who hung out in Bryn Shander making money casting these spells on PCs wanting to go farm up worg riders in the tundra.



J

[Curmudgeon]

BB: I've been using this online version of the SRD for a while. There's a good section in there on Wilderness, Weather, and Environment.

[oldgrayrogue]

Reading through these comments just underscores my own opinion that things like weather effects be DM controlled. A DM can provide the proper warning, "balance" the effect so that it is appropriately challenging but not necessarily lethal, and account for the seasonal and even daily or hourly variations in weather prevalent in a RL environment that appear difficult to capture in a virtual, digital world.