ALFA 1.23 Languages [Split off from progress]

[paazin]

I've got some concerns about the upcoming changes for languages.

As I understand it, language is now based on race, class, and region of origin. Problem though: that rather limits the customizability and verisimilitude of each character as unique background quirks and past RP cannot be expressed.

So that'd mean, a cleric of Kossuth can't choose Ignan as a starting language, nor can a wizard or warlock follower of Gargauth choose Infernal. Sure, for most PC backgrounds those would be odd choices, but it's pretty straightforward to think up one where it's a rather logical pick.

Relatedly, when languages are learned later (by the speak language skill or int bonus), the only choices available are still in that same set - it doesn't expand outward. Sure, it's trivial enough to grab a DM and say "gimmie x pls" with some justification as to why but that's always easier said than done as DMs have better things to do with their time than modify PC properties.

So, it sits rather uneasily with me - would be handy if the list could be expanded out, at least somewhat, for elemental/planar languages that one would see abouts.

[edit: split discussion into it's own topic: -AL]

[Rotku]

On that note, it is possible (I believe) for DMs to change languages a PC posesses. It's as simple as a click of a couple of buttons. So if you have that cleric of Kossuth who wants to learn Ignan - speak to a DM.

[AcadiusLost]

A few things re: language selection choices:

The level-up options for bought ranks of Speak Language do expand somewhat over the "initially available" set, as they add the available bonus languages for the server region on which the PC levels up (to reflect those languages one would tend to be easily exposed to while spending time in the Region). This should also include the "Automatic Language" for the current server region, though I'd need to test to make sure that's included.

The plan is to also allow adding to one's list of "available bonus languages" by two other means:
1. Use of a purchasable book item which instructs in the basics of the language (studied over a number of occasions on different game-days, persistently stored, etc)
2. Learning from another PC (or NPC, via DM) in the same manner (a number of independent sessions, culminating in addition of the language to the list of available bonus languages to select on Level-Up.

These are pretty straightforward to code, but will be added after the 1.23 switchover since they're not top-priority for compatibility. I'll also try to set it up so the extra language slots purchased with Speak Language ranks can be "saved" to learn languages mid-level.

I'm not 100% satisfied with the present setup for initial language selection either, I've currently got some exotic languages for my Live PC which won't be available when I rebuild on 1.23. I'm just lacking a clear canon basis for wider language availability; sources add Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal for Clerics, Draconic for Wizards, Sylvan for druids, and appropriate elemental tongues or planear tongues for planetouched, but otherwise seem to suggest those languages are only available in certain geographical regions of Faerun.

There is also a section in the FRCS where humans and half-elves are listed as getting "Any" for bonus languages, and another part with regard to languages learned with Speak Language which suggests any language in the books may be so learned, regardless. To me, this seems OK for a PnP game with the DM around to OK obscure languages, and a lot of "off-camera" time which can be used to explain the "sudden development" of language skills at levelup. In a PW like ALFA where the game experience has more continuity, and more time is given to the spaces in between adventures, I feel we ought to be able to do better. I'd also expect we'd like to see some justification for languages learned/taken (my dirt farmer from Corm Orp speaks fluent Halruaan, Netherese, Undercommon, Drow, and Yuan-ti; etc). I'm certainly open to recommendations on how to decide a middle ground.

The canon regional bonus languages by race, class, starting region, and current region is coded and working, so my natural inclination is to leave it be, or find something we can slot in on top of it (expand languages by class?). We still get a lot of flavor based on choice of starting/background region that we were lacking before, and a good deal of RP potential for learning new and otherwise unavailable languages, which was the hope with this system.

[paazin]

Alrighty, my doubts are assuaged for the most part. If it really is relatively simple for a DM to involve himself and add these things then that's great; I remember vividly how difficult it could be to get a DM to do even relatively simple scroll-scribing, so it's always made me a little uneasy when things are DM-required.

Anyhow, I really haven't any ideas on how the system could be much more improved given those own concerns of yours you mentioned, Acadius. Certainly the ideas you tossed for NPCs/books/etc. sound like handy ones to have available in the future. Perhaps one might delineate sets of languages, with respect to rarity, and then somehow have the selection method utilize those.

[AcadiusLost]

Right now races other than human and half-elves get expanded bonus language options based on their race (a selection of common ones from the non-human regional sections of the FRCS); we could expand the selection for humans/half-elves by adding to their automatically added bonus languages by race. I'm less in favor of this, as it adds such languages as options to /all/ PCs of those races, esp since as comparatively young at character creation, they'd have likely had less exposure to non-regional languages.

Boosting language options by character class appeals to me, especially as the available options are quite slim presently.

For now (canon from FRCS):
Clerics get the extra options of: Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal
Wizards get the extra options of: Draconic
Druids get the extra options of: Sylvan

Some ideas:

• Add Warlock option for Infernal (also Abyssal? Or are warlocks just Fiendish?)
• Add Favored Soul options for Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal (as clerics)
• Add Spirit Shaman option for Sylvan (as druids)
• Add Sorcerer option for Draconic (as Wizards, also dragon-blood)
• Add bard options for major human FR languages (Chondathan, Illuskan, Chessentan, Damaran, Alzhedo?)
• Add to Wizard options (Add Infernal?)
• Add Ranger options for Sylvan, and favored enemy language(s)
• Add to Druid options (add elven, possibly others?)
• Add to Paladin options (add Celestial?)
• Fighter, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Monk, Barbarian options?

It's also possible we could add a bonus language options by Faith table, though that might be a fair bit of work, making lists for each FR diety. Could start with a few and expand as we go.

Examples:

• Akadi: add Auran option
• Auril: Add Auran option
• Deep Shalashas: Add Aquan option
• Kossuth: Add Ignan option
• Tiamat: Add Draconic option
• Umberlee: Add Aquan option

Etc. Thoughts?

[hollyfant]

Druids get the extra options of: Sylvan

And get Druidic automatically, I would hope.

• Add Warlock option for Infernal (also Abyssal? Or are warlocks just Fiendish?)

They don't need to be Fiendish themselves, only from a "supernatural bloodline". Complete Arcane even mentions "wild or fey forces" that may spawn warlocks. I'd suggest just Abyssal and Infernal though, and not Sylvan or Slaad.

• Add Favored Soul options for Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal (as clerics)
• Add Spirit Shaman option for Sylvan (as druids)
• Add Sorcerer option for Draconic (as Wizards, also dragon-blood)

I agree.

• Add bard options for major human FR languages (Chondathan, Illuskan, Chessentan, Damaran, Alzhedo?)

Why? They already can learn any language for just 1 skillpoint instead of 2.

• Add to Wizard options (Add Infernal?)

I can't see why. First level wizards are not fully trained diabolists.

• Add Ranger options for Sylvan, and favored enemy language(s)

Makes sense to me.

• Add to Druid options (add elven, possibly others?)

Why Elven? If anything, druid is a human class. Gnoll would make more sense - they have a sizeable contingent of druids.

• Add to Paladin options (add Celestial?)

That makes sense.

• Fighter, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Monk, Barbarian options?

None. We can't all be cunning linguists.

It's also possible we could add a bonus language options by Faith table, though that might be a fair bit of work, making lists for each FR diety.

How about making Elemental and Alignment languages available to the clerics who pick up the relevant domains? You wouldn't even have to look at the specific deity.


How will the system handle learning languages after character generation?

[AcadiusLost]

Druidic is added automatically for druids, yes: this is just a discussion of "available bonus languages" which can be bought with starting INT bonus points and/or Speak Language expenditure.

Going with elemental languages by domain is a decent idea, certainly simpler that building a table for all dieties.

Later language progression currently works as follows. After leveling up, it checks the number of bonus languages your PC is entitled to (based on speak language ranks and INT bonus, including any newly-invested ranks from levelingup); if you deserve one or more additionals, it builds a table of available options based on:

-PC's background origin region (from character creation/adaption)
-PC's current classes (including the new one, if multiclassed)
-PC's race
-PC's current location, regionally (offers options based on where the PC leveled up).

In the works are options to add to that level-up list from:
-Languages "taught" by other PC or NPC speakers
-Languages "learned" from books/items/scripts

Also in the works are:
-Options to "save" language slots for mid-level spending (haven't gotten your last Alzhedo lesson yet to qualify for the language at time of level-up, don't want to wait 3 months to make the next level afterward to start using it).

With bards and wizards, I was trying to brainstorm class-specific extensions to what they'd have opportunities to learn. Wizards, being more trained/educated/studious in nature, might make sense to have certain archaic/dead languages available, though not many are available in the DMFI listings AFAIK. Bards, on the other hand, might be assumed to have wider worldly language exposure than PCs of other classes. Neither are ideas I'm married to, just trying to come up with options that add some flavor to various race/region/class combinations.