Crafting skills - a new idea

[Mayhem]

I don't see any reason why special materials crafting shouldn't result in a net loss of gold (though not xp). Adventurers are hobbyist crafters,

This is in no way backed up by the game mechanics - a PC adventurer is just as able to have a sufficiently high skill in a craft skill as a dedicated craftsman - moreso, in some ways, since adventurers tend to be able to reach higher levels than (eg) the blacksmith that never leaves home.

Not saying thats realistic, but its the way the DND mechanics work.

[psycho_leo]

I don't see any reason why special materials crafting shouldn't result in a net loss of gold (though not xp). Adventurers are hobbyist crafters,

This is in no way backed up by the game mechanics - a PC adventurer is just as able to have a sufficiently high skill in a craft skill as a dedicated craftsman - moreso, in some ways, since adventurers tend to be able to reach higher levels than (eg) the blacksmith that never leaves home.

Erm.. the fighter that achieves epic levels by slaying entire orc tribes with a rusty spoon and his arms tied behind his back is a master of orc slaying, not the greatest blacksmith that ever lived. The commoner that slaves himself everyday in front of a forge perfecting his craft instead of following "crazy uncle Bob the dragonslayer" in his adventures is likely a much better smith.

Not saying thats realistic, but its the way the DND mechanics work.

Precisely why I don't like crafting.

[Mayhem]

I don't see any reason why special materials crafting shouldn't result in a net loss of gold (though not xp). Adventurers are hobbyist crafters,

This is in no way backed up by the game mechanics - a PC adventurer is just as able to have a sufficiently high skill in a craft skill as a dedicated craftsman - moreso, in some ways, since adventurers tend to be able to reach higher levels than (eg) the blacksmith that never leaves home.

Erm.. the fighter that achieves epic levels by slaying entire orc tribes with a rusty spoon and his arms tied behind his back is a master of orc slaying, not the greatest blacksmith that ever lived. The commoner that slaves himself everyday in front of a forge perfecting his craft instead of following "crazy uncle Bob the dragonslayer" in his adventures is likely a much better smith.

Not in DND, I'm afraid.

The former can have Craft Weapon and Craft Armour at around +25 ranks, the former will be exceptional if he has +10.

[psycho_leo]

Not in DND, I'm afraid.

The former can have Craft Weapon and Craft Armour at around +25 ranks, the former will be exceptional if he has +10.

Again. That's why I don't like crafting. You don't learn how to actually make swords by using one. Much like you don't learn how to effectively use a blade by pounding on hot steel with a hammer.

[Mulu]

D&D was never meant to be a simulationist game. It's a high fantasy game. You want simulationism, play Traveller.

As for the hobbyist comment, it was simply a way to justify gp loss in a game system that is actually designed to create gp gain for PC's. Though even within the system, a high level artisan could very well beat out bob the epic fighter.

[Munmun]

I agree that crafting magical weapons and armor should not be automated.

Though in the case of making masterwork armor and weapons, I say it should be allowed using the game engine but cost prohibitive amounts of money to do it. Crafting drops should be rare or only purchasable in a shop for large sums of money.

Scrolls, potions, traps and wands are things that should also be allowed using the system already built into NWN2 in my opinion. Just add in the XP cost to them and you are good to go. The XP cost will make someone stop and think "do I really need to use up the xp I got over the last week just to make this wand of cure light?" and self regulates. At the very least, wizards should be able to scribe scrolls. That ability is very important to the class and the only way to trade spells with another wizard.

If a time constraint simply must be added, how about looking at it the other way. Instead of making an item take very long amounts of time to be made, limit the crafting of items with a timer. You craft something and then must wait a certain amount of in-game time until you can craft that kind of item again. I realize this doesn't seem ideal from a realism point of view, but having a system that requires a player to drop everything once a day and rush to the crafting table for a quick skill check or having the player stand at the bench for long stretches of time would cause roleplay problems and more importantly make the game terribly unfun for the person.

I do understand that there is concern with wealth limits, but I don't believe the cost of enforcing that should be the magical nature of the setting. If someone really wants to craft item after item, I say let them. They will pay for it by spending their precious XP that is already so difficult to gain. The very nature of ALFA being a slow leveling server is what will control crafting.

Having a functioning crafting system built into the ACR seems like a very important goal. I understand there are other things that need to be focused on as well but that does not make this any less important. Not having crafting closes off a lot of potential avenues for character interaction, roleplay and character concepts.

[Leevoth]

+1 on Munmun's comments, but I think it also be a good idea to have crafting items take an amount of time based their value.

[Rhavas]

The way Nwn2 Haze handled this was to require a feat to be able to craft anything and limit the number of crafts per day. This makes a smith type character feasible while limiting it to people that want to devote their characters to crafting.

[Rusty]

There's never really been concerted support for facilitating (mundane) crafting as an outright character design choice/career in ALFA; much of the crafting discussion has previously focused on the idea of higher-level unique magic item creation. That said, every option is potentially on the table. Genuine interest in putting together a workable, balanced crafting system has often been hard to find (much talk, little action), but if anyone is prepared to put in the time, there was a Crafting & Trade Team before and can be again.

[Mayhem]

The problem that always crops up is finding a crafting system that is not inherently more rewarding, financially, that adventuring.

There is a reason the sons of carpenters give up the safety of the woodshop and take up the sword - the potential rewards.

Just check out the wages for craftsmen, even skilled craftsmen, compared to the assumed wealth of an xth level adventurer...

***

That, combined with our wealth limits, makes crafting pretty pointless except for the creation of very specific items.

When it comes to the wealth limits, if you have the feats to make your own stuff you may well prevent a DM from rewarding you, so that the guy on an equivalent adventure who didn't take the feats is just as well equipped as you, magically speaking, because he wasn't up against the wealth-limits due to making his own gear cheaply, when the rewards were being handed out.

***

Hence the non RAW nature of this original suggestion - a means of making the feats (and skills) worth having without coming up against the wealth creation or wealth limit issues.

[Veilan]

I mostly concur with Mayhem's analysis, and time and time when I've been thinking the only reply I could come up with was "coolness factor" (hey, it's cool to swing your self-made blade) and, to a lesser degree, efficiency through customisation of kit (clever DMs may just not let you find that bastard sword +1 you're pining for with your weapon focus, but perhaps you can craft yourself a masterwork one).

[Brokenbone]

PnP crafting = sole DM controlling the economy.

24/7 PW crafting = theres a whole lot of non-DM'd hours available to game, which is probably why there's always been trepidation about scripted crafting (i.e., where "hours = power", as opposed to RP / adventure / character development). There's probably some balanced system out there waiting to be conceived, but I guess someone or some group of someones has to get proposing.

[Mayhem]

I did discuss, at length, a guild based crafting system with somebody a while back (Rusty, iirc) but I never really expanded on it.

***

I would like to see crafting implemented, I really would, but it needs to be (a) not a waste of feats/skillpoints whilst simultaneously not breakign teh wealth limits.

My main coolness idea with mundane crafting is to allow the poor guy stripped of hs gear and lost in the woods to make a flint knife and then a usable spear, staff or even bow without having to go near civilisation.

[Amar]

In the crafting and trade team's forum (dont know if its still lurker in the hidden sections) is enough information to compile a full set of standards for player based crafting. The project was completed, but the project leader never gave the go ahead or "were not done" sign to go in either direction, so it staled out.

[White Warlock]

*bump*

The project was completed, but the project leader never gave the go ahead or "were not done" sign to go in either direction, so it staled out.

Is this still on the 'staled out' state and, if so, is there any intentions of pulling it out of that state and implementing it? If so, is there a projected timeline for implementation?