Surprise Spawns

[Swift]

On TSM however there was Ryo, an elf whose name begins with an E (played by lord psycho) theres another low level new elf, greases new pc. Which would be at least 4

Wait what? THE lord psycho?

[Blindhamsterman]

unless I was horribly mistaken...

[Keryn]

I have a certain difficulty in understanding mogonk, because to me high levels are the ones who suffer in ALFA! And once again.. to me this is a fact!

You start a new PC and there is challenge all over, find a friend, meet people, gather a party raid the goblin camp, organize a group and take on the Orc cave, or travel to a distant destination in what may be a thrilling experience. take on some statics that will for sure get you in a situation where you must face a challenge. Is it hard to get the cool new weapon? SURE, but the fact it is hard makes it so much better when you do get it after so much hard work. Been there done that, I'm playing a lvl 10+ PC, and guess what.

I can most likely go to anywhere in this server, I have no challenges without a DM, or quite a few, going around and raiding a cave full of orcs used to be fun, a chalenge and a reason to party up and RP, and now became a dull thing, no chalenge, no fun, no reward!

I log in and do what? Party up with lowbies and suddenly I remove the challenge factor for them? Wait... I sit around and do Tavern RP until I die from... boredom. It does get old and like psycho-leo said some people do play this game to get in some adventure, kill the bad guy take the treasure, and get a reputation, etc...

In the end of the day, I think up to level 6/7/8 you can have fun, ALFA provides this in a static way. With static quests, encounters, and many options to explore and do something regarding the world that surrounds them.

On other hand, higher levels have no challenging areas, have a hard time getting DM time, because inevitably they log less and less as they see its hard for them to fit in a world that simply does not demand their skill, and we hardly have any scheduled DM sessions.

So yes pretty please give me a bloody random encounter, give me a reason to go around and patrol an area, or to join up with a group of lowbies who have no idea what may stand in the road, that is usually empty but might not be today...

And if you playing a low lvl PC look ahead and see an ogre.. you better run, this already happens... If you decide to take on it and die, that was a fair option you had, that may even make sense for your PC to do...being a fearless barbarian who knows...

Now, if a high level Pc hits a low level encounter and kills them... he will pick up low level reward, as stated before, a rusty sword and some coins? woohoo 100gp worth of loot... meh.

If the same high level hits a high level encounter and gets the reward he got what he risked his neck for. Same risk the low level would take on trying to kill the goblins and the reward that would fit them like candy...

This is a non-issue, we do need dynamic stuff in the server, we are all humans, we learn and we inconsistently try to be better, after 2 years playing in TSM, I know the server inside out, I've been to probably 90% of the adventuring areas, I'll eventually hit over and over the same cave, like someone said we cant have 1000 areas, so we need to hit the same ones more then once, more oftne then we wished, and we end up knowing what to expect... Please add some uncertainty, and add with this some more fun and reasons for people to be alert, even when they think they can take on whatever is on the goblins cave..

[oldgrayrogue]

This is a wonderful idea. ALFA is supposed to be a Persistent World. The more dynamic you can make it the better. We are not a pure campaign play world. When we are I will find another world to play in. There are few things more exciting IMO than turning a corner and encountering something you don't expect to be there. How anyone can think that is not more fun and not a good idea boggles the mind.

Is the world more lethal for low level characters? Absolutely. This thread is not about that. Find a group to adventure with. If you don't want to fight these pre-set encounters then RP running away. I have been a champion of lessening the lethality at lower levels and increasing it at higher levels for as long as I have played in ALFA. That's a long standing debate but it need not be played out again here to downplay a really good idea.

The bottom line is that what is being complained about already exists in ALFA: it is called a random encounter system on theTSM OLM. As a level 2 I met a dragon in a random encounter alone on the road. My toon ran away quickly and slack jawed then RPd about it for a week. He even named his new sword after the dragon. It was really cool. So some DMs want to set up these types of random encounters off of the OLM? So what. That's the system we have now. What's the big deal?

This will not imbalance wealth on the server or solely benefit high level PCs, it will benefit all PCs with more and exciting things to RP about. It just might give higher levels something interesting to do and to get excited about when a DM isn't around too. Maybe even end up challenging or *gasp* killing a few if they decide to fight the dragon. Yes, in case we have forgotten this is a permadeath world, even for high level PCs. We also have wealth standards moderated by DMs. If someone exceeds those standards we deal with it. Period, end of story.

To the players of high level PCs who find themselves bored, I feel for you, I really do. I have been there and retired two high level PCs because of it. Maybe this will help. Maybe also think about retiring and starting over? Believe it or not its fun, and if Mirabai adds all these dynamic little encounters it will be even more fun.

[psycho_leo]

unless I was horribly mistaken...

You were horribly mistaken. Ok, maybe it wasn't a horrible mistake. Sorry, Swift..

[Blindhamsterman]

This is a wonderful idea. ALFA is supposed to be a Persistent World. The more dynamic you can make it the better. We are not a pure campaign play world. When we are I will find another world to play in. There are few things more exciting IMO than turning a corner and encountering something you don't expect to be there. How anyone can think that is not more fun and not a good idea boggles the mind.

Is the world more lethal for low level characters? Absolutely. This thread is not about that. Find a group to adventure with. If you don't want to fight these pre-set encounters then RP running away. I have been a champion of lessening the lethality at lower levels and increasing it at higher levels for as long as I have played in ALFA. That's a long standing debate but it need not be played out again here to downplay a really good idea.

The bottom line is that what is being complained about already exists in ALFA: it is called a random encounter system on theTSM OLM. As a level 2 I met a dragon in a random encounter alone on the road. My toon ran away quickly and slack jawed then RPd about it for a week. He even named his new sword after the dragon. It was really cool. So some DMs want to set up these types of random encounters off of the OLM? So what. That's the system we have now. What's the big deal?

This will not imbalance wealth on the server or solely benefit high level PCs, it will benefit all PCs with more and exciting things to RP about. It just might give higher levels something interesting to do and to get excited about when a DM isn't around too. Maybe even end up challenging or *gasp* killing a few if they decide to fight the dragon. Yes, in case we have forgotten this is a permadeath world, even for high level PCs. We also have wealth standards moderated by DMs. If someone exceeds those standards we deal with it. Period, end of story.

To the players of high level PCs who find themselves bored, I feel for you, I really do. I have been there and retired two high level PCs because of it. Maybe this will help. Maybe also think about retiring and starting over? Believe it or not its fun, and if Mirabai adds all these dynamic little encounters it will be even more fun.

+1

unless I was horribly mistaken...

You were horribly mistaken. Ok, maybe it wasn't a horrible mistake. Sorry, Swift..

well damn...

[mogonk]

Erm...this may sound harsh, but so what?

Seriously? I need to spell this out for you? It doesn't sound harsh, it sounds incredibly short-sighted. How long will ALFA survive with no population growth? Honestly, you give the impression that ALFA's sustainability is something you never question.

There isn't going to be a NWN3. In a few months, NWN2 will be 5 years old. How many new players will be brought in to a server for a game that old? Not many. Every single new person who logs on is a potential long term player...and there will be fewer next year, and the next, until there aren't any more. The extent to which ALFA will survive is entirely dependent on player retention.

I have been a champion of lessening the lethality at lower levels and increasing it at higher levels for as long as I have played in ALFA. That's a long standing debate but it need not be played out again here to downplay a really good idea.

...except that the idea has a direct impact on that issue.

Not to worry, none of the issues I've raised have been sufficient to deter support for what is clearly a very popular idea. It has not been downplayed, despite the fact that it is in no way "really good". We're talking about DMs using their resources to do something other than DM, in the context of a massive paucity of DMing. That's not a really good idea, that's a terrible idea.

A "really good idea" would be urging every DM to run at least one weekly scheduled session. In other words, addressing the problem rather than masking it while exacerbating another problem.

I have a certain difficulty in understanding mogonk, because to me high levels are the ones who suffer in ALFA! And once again.. to me this is a fact!

Read my post again. I was pretty clear about the point that slippery curves have negative effects on both ends, the low lvl ones who face way more challenge than they should (and get bored because there's nothing safe to do) and the high level ones who face way less challenge than they should (and get bored because there's nothing to do at all). The result for both is boredom. That's what happens when you have static challenges. The linear curve created by DM scaled challenges doesn't pose either problem, which is why it's preferable.

The only way to create a linear challenge curve out of static challenges is to segregate the challenges into "levels" or "zones". There is one zone for CR 2-3, one for CR 4-5, etc. In other words, the DM doesn't scale the challenges, the scale is inherent in the structure of the game world. That's how MMOs do it. It's an approach that lacks even an attempt at verisimilitude, and it's entirely inappropriate for ALFA, but that's how you make static challenges work. It's not an option for us, which is why static challenges don't work for us.

MS has a couple of dedicated DMs with regular play times, and feels vibrant and alive with virtually no statics at all. TSM has more players, and a ton of statics, and yet feels, in the words of a player I talked to today "like a ghostland". What conclusion can we draw from this? That adding even one active DM to TSMs roster would do far more to improve the quality of the player experience than any increase to static challenges.

I talked to yet another TSM player a while ago who told me he had been playing for 2 weeks and had never had any interaction with a DM, not even a response when he sent in his character bio. This was in the context of me persuading him not to quit. That's not viable. You're kidding yourself if you think it is. By all means, add all the statics you want. You're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I understand that very few people agree with me about this. I do. But I think a lot of you aren't thinking this through as thoroughly as you should. I think a lot of you are blinded by a belief that the way it has been is the way it will be, and an unwillingness to accept that circumstances are changing the nature of ALFA in a way that you cannot control. That being said, I don't even play on TSM, so I probably shouldn't bother. Carry on.

[Keryn]

mogonk I think you are trying to address a different situation in this thread. And where I disagree with you is precisely there.

Do we need more DMs? Hell yes... I came to ALFA because I had been told about the excellent RP, and the awesome DMs around who made the experience worth it. To tell the truth the DM interaction was always pretty low, which is unfortunate, and it is evident to all that whenever a DM plays regularly in a server you see a a whole lot of players rushing to that server in hopes to see something new happening out of the static world. This was also proved over and over.

The problem seems to be finding DMs, and even harder to find good DMs willing to tackle the issue. If you have any suggestion please step forward and give it, because we do need more DMs. TSM is by far our best server in terms of work involved in creating it, and in the end people will go to where they will find fun, which in 90% of the cases means going after a place where they will meet a DM IG who will provide good fun.

The situation debated here, has nothing to do with this, you want to make life easier at lower levels, but i don't find it hard nowdays in ALFA... specially not in TSM where you can easily party up with 1 other PC and tackle the first few levels facing some easy critters like kobolds, goblins and doing some statics, while there is no DM on. This provides fuel for your RP, and adds to the PC story. In ther perfect world it would be all DMed... damm how sweet that would be? But since this is not possible, while we have no DM on we keep on playing and having fun with what the world provides. Untill it stops providing, and thats why I think higher levels suffer more.

I BET you have not ran across the areas who are far from the cities in TSM, well news for you is, they are all empty... moonwoods hardly have a spawn, when they do its likely a wolf... meh! If a DM can from time to time leave a camp of whatever, and suddenly your surprised by them, maybe that surprise factor will bring in the need to find a scout, and party up more often, rather then play superman and cross the whole moonwood like if it was fully empty, with zero risk.

Once again I believe the issue you raise is not new, but thanks for doing it again, its never too much, we need DMs, we need DMs willing to DM, we do need them IG... The mroe the merrier, and when BG went live with active DMs it was full, when Saderman was active there it was full, Moonshaes is seeing the same, TSM used to see it with wynna and cloud, and Viigas dwarven session proves it even further. 1 DM IG and people will jump IG aswell just thinking they might get some sweet love...

Now where to find them DMs?

[Mirabai]

There's a button over there in the left-side toolbar, it says "Apply to DM"

Feel free to click it.

[Swift]

There isn't going to be a NWN3. In a few months, NWN2 will be 5 years old. How many new players will be brought in to a server for a game that old? Not many. Every single new person who logs on is a potential long term player...and there will be fewer next year, and the next, until there aren't any more. The extent to which ALFA will survive is entirely dependent on player retention.

Player retention now is, from my knowledge, roughly the same as it has always been since the decline of NWN1. Your argument is not new. We have had the same arguments when NWN1 was dying and NWN2 was still a fair while away. Your solutions seem to be, essentially, making it impossible to die in the first few levels and magically finding a large amount of DMs that will DM all the time, which are great, except they are not very realistic at this stage. I cannot understand why you would then oppose a) more low level statics to, you know, give you guys something to do and b) random DM spawned things to find on the server to, you know, give you guys something else to do?

What do we do in the meantime while we wait for your magical solutions to bear fruit? Nothing? We both admit there is a problem, of that there is no question, but you are arguing that, essentially, we do nothing and hope that a dozen players will wake up tomorrow and go "Im gonna become a DM!" and remove all our worries.

Oh, and actually, there is going to be a Neverwinter Nights 3. It was announced months ago. We simply don't know whether it will be technically possible to build a world like we have here in it.

A "really good idea" would be urging every DM to run at least one weekly scheduled session. In other words, addressing the problem rather than masking it while exacerbating another problem.

Lead by example. Some will follow, some won't. Some DMs simply do not like to do scheduled, campaign style DMing. I would rather we still have those DMs do ad hoc stuff than not have them at all.

The only way to create a linear challenge curve out of static challenges is to segregate the challenges into "levels" or "zones". There is one zone for CR 2-3, one for CR 4-5, etc. In other words, the DM doesn't scale the challenges, the scale is inherent in the structure of the game world. That's how MMOs do it. It's an approach that lacks even an attempt at verisimilitude, and it's entirely inappropriate for ALFA, but that's how you make static challenges work. It's not an option for us, which is why static challenges don't work for us.

We already sort of do this. Roads, reasonably safe. Cities, safe. Wilds, not safe. Seriously, this is not WoW where the world is broken up into convenient little zones with a dozen quest hubs. You walk off the road, there is no telling what danger might be out there. Maybe itll just be a lone wolf? Maybe that mangy wolf is being eyed up by a bear for a snack? Maybe an ogre is eyeing the bear up for a nice warm bearskin cloak? Maybe a dragon has decided to have a bit of fun by scaring the shit out of the population?

Most areas of Faerun are built so that the 'wilds' or, as you might call them, 'adventuring areas' are unpredictable.

I talked to yet another TSM player a while ago who told me he had been playing for 2 weeks and had never had any interaction with a DM, not even a response when he sent in his character bio. This was in the context of me persuading him not to quit. That's not viable. You're kidding yourself if you think it is. By all means, add all the statics you want. You're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I hear you have applied to DM. I hope that application was to TSM to help fix this troubles we are having. FWIW, the DM ranks for each server ebb and flow. Baldurs Gate used to be a ghost town when Moonshaes was not live, as all the players wanted to be where the DMs were, and all the DMs wanted to be where the players were, do Baldurs Gate was rarely used. Since I became a DM, I have seen the DM ranks on TSM peak and drop out twice. People burn out, lose motivation etc etc.

I think a lot of you are blinded by a belief that the way it has been is the way it will be, and an unwillingness to accept that circumstances are changing the nature of ALFA in a way that you cannot control. That being said, I don't even play on TSM, so I probably shouldn't bother. Carry on.

No, we are simply looking at the reality of how ALFA is and has been, while you, as someone reasonably new, are up and eager and full of ideas and not (dare i say it) at all jaded by the failures of past initiatives. That is fantastic for us and for you, but the reality doesn't quite match your proposed solutions. If it did, don't you think we would have done them by now?

Your 2 main points I can gather to help fix things are

1) Get more DMs and
2) Make the world less lethal

For 1, that is almost entirely in the players hands. We can post on the forums and rant in chat till we are blue in the face that we need DMs, but if the players don't want to step up, we cannot force them to.

For 2, the only way to make the world less lethal (especially for new players) is to not DM them at all. Believe me, more players die at the hands of DM spawned creatures than anything else.

[Blindhamsterman]

Mogonk, why not apply for DMing? I'd sure appreciate it if you applied to do so on TSM (as its the opposite side of ALFA to where you play)

this:

To be honest, you are lucky Sandermann could not stay to finish his plans for Baldurs Gate, as he was in the middle or writing a spawn system that would dynamically change over time based on the actions of players ie the same areas would not always have the same mobs, they might have been harder, they might have been lower. I get the feeling you would not have enjoyed such changes

sounds epic...

[psycho_leo]

A "really good idea" would be urging every DM to run at least one weekly scheduled session. In other words, addressing the problem rather than masking it while exacerbating another problem.

That's not a good idea. That's an ideal scenario. If holding a weekly DM session was a requirement to being a DM we woudn´t have many DMs at all. Some people don't want to commit to a schedule when DMing and prefer popping in every now and then and run ad-hoc stuff. It's been like that since I can remember. Bottom line is, you can urge DMs to run hourly sessions if you want, but they'll run exactly as many sessions as they want/can. And if they do it once a month we say thanks and leave at that. Nobody is forced to do it.

Adding random spawns and more statics is not an ideal solution. I'm pretty sure that everyone that supports this know it, contrary to your belief. But your solution is not a real solution. We're not going to magically get a dozen new DMs for every server just because we really really want to. The idea of static content is giving people something to do when they have no DMs to interact with. They are not mutually exclusive. What you have to consider is, would you rather play in a server that has limited DM interaction and nothing to do when there is no DM on or in a server that has the same limited DM interaction but stuff to do, other than roleplaying an alcoholic to be?

[Mirabai]

I would like to reiterate what PL said, but with all the tact taken out of it.

DMing is not a job, it is a hobby.

Believe it or not, we all have lives. No one pays us. I'm not going to punch a clock to come DM you.

That said, if mogonk or anyone else would like to pay me to DM them, I will happily block out however many hours of time you wish me to upon negotiation of monies and their deposit into my paypal account. And trust me when I say to you, I am not a cheap date.

Until such a thing happens, or until DMs suddenly rain from the sky and they all DM regularly and consistently without burning out all over the place (life expectancy for DMs is sadly very short) we do the best we can with what we've got... as we always have... for all these years... and as we will continue to do despite doom and gloom predictions to the contrary.

For the five people who voted 'nay', I guess you guys ought to stay where it's safe. To the rest of you, keep your eyes peeled and your toon creeping along in stealth.

Overall this thread and other spin-off versions of it have made me not want to log in and do anything at all IG. I'll get over it, but I also don't want to read this thread anymore, so I'm locking it. It's mine, so I can. Nyah