Travel map vs Dynamic travel area vs grid building

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:50 pm

The simpler way to do this, as Thangorn mentions, is to lay down triggers at specific places on the map that fire encounters (the encounter itself may be random from a subtable), and to move/rearrange/rejuggle them with frequent updates (moving triggers doesn't require a change to the PWC/walkmesh, so is easily done).

The hands-off and more complex alternative is rolling for encounter chance on a pseudoheartbeat while in the area, and laying down triggers for each terrain type/territory, so the encounter decision script can pick dynamically which kind of encounter area to drop you (plains, forest, road, mountains, swamp, coastal) and what sort of baddies to populate it with.

Basically, the OnEnter scripts for the "regional/terrain" triggers would just flag the lead PC with info on the current location, so if an encounter is rolled, it can be contextualized. This could naturally extend as well to things like hidden caches or map features- or special encounters initiated by active static quests. (ex, "find the missing caravan" quest).

These are all things I was keen to script a long time back, but got sidelined in favor of more core needs, esp. since there didn't seem to be a strong demand for a travel map at the time. If Thangorn wants to try to take a bite out of the scripting work (or if Darrenhfx is inspired to take a stab at at), I'm happy to talk ideas and specs, and give support from the sidelines in the near-term. I may have more time on my hands come Jan 1st as well.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:07 pm

I might be able to take a stab at it... I have minimal scripting ability so I might be better suited to putting the tables togther.

I'm quite intrigued by the potential of this system however, so perhaps that alone might save me from getting too frustrated learning to put it together. I have to work on the spell fixes first though.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:12 pm

Certainly, setting up the tables will be important (as will getting those spell fixes sorted out!). We may eventually want to go as far as building the tables in SQL, so they can be rearranged dynamically without bringing the server down (or indeed, without even logging in with a DM client, potentially).

As I've said, the potential for such a system is inestimable. I think it'll be easier to get a handle on things when we've got a particular overland map to work with, rather than scripting everything up on it's own.

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:36 pm

as soon as I bend YATT to my will I'll have a working travel map with your basic features -:
* shrinks you
* slows you down
* stops you from casting spells (for now, translocational spells might be something to consider going forward but since we'll have low level PCs for a while, it's hardly a consideration)
* rest system (based on the current ALFA rest system)

Then I'll work on -:
* basic terrain specific random encounter system
But I'm going to need some assistance from you script gurus (Acad

)

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:05 am

I've got code for the shrinking/slowing & removing already (unless you got that code from me way back when we'd talked about this months ago?)

Also, how were you planning to nullify spellcasting? I'd considered two routes (via spell hook, and via decrementing remaining spell uses) for a separate ACR system- since both are pretty heavily customized in ALFA you may find it a bit trickier than anticipated, and there's the off chance that what works in an empty mod might not be a workable approach amidst the ACR. I'll also concede that neither of the above methods work very well for what we're trying to accomplish.

Similarly with the current rest system - it's pretty trivial to add an "if PC is in the travel area, do X instead" to the code, but the OnRest event itself is fairly arcane (fires 2-3 times per rest with different REST_EVENTTYPE_REST_ contants, and includes engine rest effects you have to work around or nullify). At some level it's going to involve editing acr_resting_i.nss, as well, which is in the haks.

An observation from using the Exodus travel map: the primary difficulty using the map is trying to move as a party- though your PC is rescaled way down to microscopic size, your collision radius is still "normal", so you end up walking with a giant repulsion bubble around your PC, often bumping party members into encounter area or settlement triggers unexpectedly (as it looks like you're nowhere near them). What I'd wanted to do was to make all but the party leader cutscene invisible, uncommandable, and force-following the party leader. That way only one PC "drives" for the party, and all the encounters/transitions can happen on the basis of the party leader. A rest attempt would jump the whole party to an encounter area (albeit usually without an encounter inside), so they could reparty or split up, etc.

It'd also be nice to be able to cut the perception range (for sight and sound) on the overland map, though that may not be an option, unless we play some tricks with the NWNx4-chat plugin which catches (and can supress) messages typed on the main channels.

Food for thought, anyway. Let me know if you've got ideas on how to manage the spell nullifying (would you also end spells in effect before entering the travel area? long-duration spells might conceivably last through some short-length trips IC).

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:54 am

On a related note, I noticed this on the Vault. Thoughts on why they would use a world map for the city?

indio · Post by **indio** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:57 am

Westgate is big enough to not want to build using NWN2, given how huge the mod would become....pretty sure that's what an Ossian dev said.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:59 am

Ok makes sense.. sometimes I don't get past the pretty pictures

Is that something we might want to do with Waterdeep someday?

Rick7475 · Post by **Rick7475** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:27 am

I hate that way. You can build WD or Westgate without Worldmap. In fact, I was thinking over it the other day.

Now that I have seen how Indio applied Silverymoon, and since Silverymoon is the size of a Waterdeep ward, building Waterdeep would not be that impractical.

7 wards = 7 32X32 areas. Plus a few outskirt exterior areas, you would be looking most likely still under a dozen ext areas or under 20 ext's. Cut and paste each ward from the map and use Yatt to create each ward. Area Trasition by streets like the old WD (keep in mind that you can't go right to the edge). Use walk meshes for the buildings, which isn't so hard now that I've gone through Silverymoon with the Walkmesh helper fixing up my changes.

Add a couple of other exterior areas like the Rat Hills and a couple mountains north, and I think you would have it. You could probably through in Ardeep Woods as a 3 - 4 more exteriors depending on your mod size.

I think a dedicated builder could do the exteriors without the WorldMap.

I bet you could do it in a week Indio

Cipher, if you're reading this, I wouldn't throw in the towel yet

Teric neDhalir · Post by **Teric neDhalir** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:45 pm

The simpler way to do this, as Thangorn mentions, is to lay down triggers at specific places on the map that fire encounters (the encounter itself may be random from a subtable), and to move/rearrange/rejuggle them with frequent updates (moving triggers doesn't require a change to the PWC/walkmesh, so is easily done).

Uh, what happens when you trigger an encounter? Do you have a very tiny fight?

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:50 pm

no Teric, you get ported to an encounter area, similar to the OC's system..

and yes AL, I have your code..

Westgate is big enough to not want to build using NWN2, given how huge the mod would become

*GULP* Zhentil Keep including ruins and environs will be at least 12 24x24 exteriors.. surely Westgate isnt bigger than that?

Teric neDhalir · Post by **Teric neDhalir** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:32 pm

lol. Sorry, not actually played the OC! I guess you mean like Baldur's Gate? If so I'm afraid me no like-um, but I'm a bit late to the debate.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:23 pm

I can link the discussion threads and/or make a better description of it later today if I find some spare time, but it's a way to introduce a fair bit of dynamic content to fill in the spaces in between the fully built-out islands of "interest areas"- this allows builders to seamlessly backfill detailed content, while still representing a larger area of their server's build area.

I'd encourage checking it out with an open mind, once we've got an example area ready for testing.

Teric neDhalir · Post by **Teric neDhalir** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:20 pm

It's OK, Acadius, I'm aware of the issues, the only thing that I'm concerned about is if it boils down to "compulsory combat to proceed" ("You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourselves"). I'm sure I'm just displaying a lack of imagination.

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Teric wrote:lol. Sorry, not actually played the OC! I guess you mean like Baldur's Gate? If so I'm afraid me no like-um, but I'm a bit late to the debate.

What is it exactly you don't like about the Baldur's Gate encounter system? The OC's system is similar definitely.. The system I'm proposing will be more D&Dish than either system..

I am very much interested in your feedback. It will definitely help us build a better system.

I've been thinking about the encounter system as it pertains to PWs. Do you think, script gurus, there is a way to copy areas while the server is running? This way we can generate more than one instance of a particular encounter area saving room in the mod but also not breaking immersion when the scripts proc more than one encounter/rest at a time..

anyway.. this is probably a question for another forum..