Challenges: Hard/Easy enough for you?

[Heero]

I find myself nodding my head 'yes' when I read a lot of t-ice's posts.

[Brokenbone]

Tell me more about these gritty goblins and their sticks!

[oldgrayrogue]

Thing is, our campaign is set in Faerun, and last I checked FRCS that's a magical place chock full of powerful NPCs and adventurers (supposedly). I don't want to play a commoner or a fantasy version of Sims.

Level disparity and maintaining challenge is a core issue on every PW I have ever played on. In my opinion, the solution to this issue is fairly simple: maintain the challenge level and even increase it as the PCs advance in level. It stands to reason that high level uber heroes or villains will eventually draw the attention of antagonists of similar power wanting to take them on. "With great power comes great responsibility" right? That means facing those challenges whether you play a hero or a villain. Getting to high levels should not equate with becoming invincible. In terms of static content that seems to be pretty much the case in ALFA, so in my view its up to the DMs to maintain the challenge level for the more uber players. The problem is that, especially in ALFA, where it can literally take RL years to advance a PC past level 10, most DMs seem reluctant to really push the envelope and challenge high level PCs with a real chance of death. That's too bad. The notion that if you survive to high levels you have earned the right to be secure in your uberness is inconsistent with true hardcore roleplay IMO. Hardcore and permadeath should apply equally at high levels as it does at low levels with challenges (and rewards!) that correspond to character level and power. That's D&D.

We immerse in our concepts and grow attached to them, but I for one have always preferred the satisfaction of a "glorious end" to a PC's story rather than perpetual uberness. In fact, I have found myself choosing to retire several higher level PCs rather than continue playing them without any real challenge. High fantasy and gritty fantasy are not mutually exclusive either. The limitations of the game engine are very real and those points are well taken, but I think we can work around that most times.

I'll say it again, in terms of player experience I think we have it a bit upside down. I'd prefer it if the early levels, when we just start our concept and are really excited about the story, are more survivable, with the challenges getting greater and more deadly as we advance in levels, which enables PCs to really shine with all of those uber feats, spells and trinkets they have collected as they rise up the ladder. Moreover, if "starting over" were not such a daunting task, more players would be willing to risk losing their treasured concepts to real challenges and not gripe when those choices result in character death. A new concept becomes an exciting concept to look forward to rather than an "oh crap I have to start all over" moment. This is certainly my preference and sort of what I expected when I joined ALFA. I wonder how many players and DMs feel the same?

[Adanu]

I'm not really a fan of the 'glorious end' scenario when anyone sane would prefer to remain alive and retire to old age. I actually prefer that to be left up to PC mindset and concept and player choice over being DM enforced.

Some like being uber, some just consider it a new challenge... either way works.

[t-ice]

I'd prefer it if the early levels, when we just start our concept and are really excited about the story, are more survivable, with the challenges getting greater and more deadly as we advance in levels, which enables PCs to really shine with all of those uber feats, spells and trinkets they have collected as they rise up the ladder. Moreover, if "starting over" were not such a daunting task, more players would be willing to risk losing their treasured concepts to real challenges and not gripe when those choices result in character death.

+1 !

[Heero]

I'd prefer it if the early levels, when we just start our concept and are really excited about the story, are more survivable, with the challenges getting greater and more deadly as we advance in levels, which enables PCs to really shine with all of those uber feats, spells and trinkets they have collected as they rise up the ladder. Moreover, if "starting over" were not such a daunting task, more players would be willing to risk losing their treasured concepts to real challenges and not gripe when those choices result in character death.

+1 !

One thing Ive always had a problem with in DnD, or any roleplaying setting really, is buying into a rat, bat, small beetle, small spider, or even a small, unarmed, unarmored, lost, scared, untrained goblin being able to actually kill a fully grown man, wielding a sword, axe, or bow, and having at least some training or experience using said weapon. Remember, a level 1 fighter, or any other class, wasnt <i>born</i> a fighter, just as a level 1 wizard wasnt born *pew-pew-pewing* magic missiles this way and that. People start out as commoners, and their early experiences/training give them that first level, no?

Anyway, how the feck does a rat kill a chainmail-covered dude swinging a hammer at it?

PS This isnt a plea to make anything in ALFA easier, simply an observation on the ridiculousness of it all (I guess the entire thing is pretty ridiculous to begin with, so....).

[oldgrayrogue]

I'm not really a fan of the 'glorious end' scenario when anyone sane would prefer to remain alive and retire to old age. I actually prefer that to be left up to PC mindset and concept and player choice over being DM enforced.

Some like being uber, some just consider it a new challenge... either way works.

I'm talking challenges Adanu not the kill button. Also "sane" people risk their lives every day for a cause, for duty, honor, country, out of love, altruism whatever. We call them "heroes." Others do the same thing for different motivations -- wealth, power, status, thrill, whatever. Yes, most would certainly prefer to have their lives continue and would not choose to throw them away, I don't think that either is "insane" for taking risks and facing challenges. I like real challenges and real risk in roleplay because to me it more closely simiulates RL and makes the experience more rewarding. This concept, I think, should be at the core of any hardcore, permadeath PW. However, lowering the risk level at lower levels, while ratcheting it up (or at least maintaining it) at higher levels would reneder the game experience more enjoyable, exciting and less frustrating in my view. Just want to clarify that I am not advocating DMs just picking off higher level PCs. That is absolutely not what I mean. If a "glorious end" happens it happens. If its predetermined that's railroading.

[Zelknolf]

Getting to high levels should not equate with becoming invincible. In terms of static content that seems to be pretty much the case in ALFA,

Which ALFA have you been playing in?

I can show you parts of ALFA where we have adult dragons, armies of ogres with barbarian levels and greataxes, giant beetles that can rip mid-to-high-level PCs in half (and do!), caves full of mysteriously-high-level drow and duergar (why is that? Shouldn't they be lower level on average, what with the LA?), colossal spiders, random lizards who punch harder than stone giants, actual stone giants, and other sorts of loveliness. I play a high-level healtank and have no trouble finding content that I have to run away from, and have to replace my emergency potions with some regularity.

I suppose it's possible to avoid all of that stuff (it sounds like you have), but it's hardly the fault of the build if people never leave the areas full of goblins and kobolds.

[I-KP]

I'll say it again, in terms of player experience I think we have it a bit upside down. I'd prefer it if the early levels, when we just start our concept and are really excited about the story, are more survivable, with the challenges getting greater and more deadly as we advance in levels, which enables PCs to really shine with all of those uber feats, spells and trinkets they have collected as they rise up the ladder.

Agreed - mostly. Ideally threat levels should be roughly constant throughout the life of a character, with no particular bent towards low, middling or high levellers. Undeniably, in ALFA (and most PWs for that matter, lets not single out ALFA) the threat metre is way off the danger scale for low level characters, roughly median for the middling levels, and relatively little threat for the high. I'm not saying that the DMs are going easy on the high level PCs, I'm saying that it's often very difficult to make something challenging for a high leveller when there are so many more low to middling level PCs online at the same time, and thus the situation perpetuates.

I would like to see a game where new concepts are given a chance to bloom rather than being thrown away in early, often 'no fault' deaths. (I also believe that people should learn to run away more often, but that's the other side of another coin. No-name encounters doesn't help matters either.) I do see the threat level in ALFA as being out of balance and that this stands as being one of the major reasons why player retention in AFLA is so poor; not the sole reason, but definitely way up there.

[Heero]

I hope to one day add something worthwhile to the list in my signature, maybe a beholder or a dragon or something.

[Heero]

Also, to answer the question posed by the topic title...

Well they definitely aint easy enough fer me.

[NESchampion]

Getting to high levels should not equate with becoming invincible. In terms of static content that seems to be pretty much the case in ALFA,

Which ALFA have you been playing in?

I can show you parts of ALFA where we have adult dragons, armies of ogres with barbarian levels and greataxes, giant beetles that can rip mid-to-high-level PCs in half (and do!), caves full of mysteriously-high-level drow and duergar (why is that? Shouldn't they be lower level on average, what with the LA?), colossal spiders, random lizards who punch harder than stone giants, actual stone giants, and other sorts of loveliness. I play a high-level healtank and have no trouble finding content that I have to run away from, and have to replace my emergency potions with some regularity.

I suppose it's possible to avoid all of that stuff (it sounds like you have), but it's hardly the fault of the build if people never leave the areas full of goblins and kobolds.

Going into the forests on BG has me terrified. Makes the Cloakwood look like a playground where I can picnic with both eyes closed. TSM has some nasty areas too though, including a certain cave of giants.

[oldgrayrogue]

Getting to high levels should not equate with becoming invincible. In terms of static content that seems to be pretty much the case in ALFA,

Which ALFA have you been playing in?

I can show you parts of ALFA where we have adult dragons, armies of ogres with barbarian levels and greataxes, giant beetles that can rip mid-to-high-level PCs in half (and do!), caves full of mysteriously-high-level drow and duergar (why is that? Shouldn't they be lower level on average, what with the LA?), colossal spiders, random lizards who punch harder than stone giants, actual stone giants, and other sorts of loveliness. I play a high-level healtank and have no trouble finding content that I have to run away from, and have to replace my emergency potions with some regularity.

I suppose it's possible to avoid all of that stuff (it sounds like you have), but it's hardly the fault of the build if people never leave the areas full of goblins and kobolds.

Going into the forests on BG has me terrified. Makes the Cloakwood look like a playground where I can picnic with both eyes closed. TSM has some nasty areas too though, including a certain cave of giants.

Things must have changed since I left Zelk. My longest lived ALFA PC Corio roamed all over ALFA, and anyone who played with him I think can vouch that he was not adverse to seeking out and taking risks. At level 9 (2 fighter/7 rogue I think) Corio was able to solo a cave of ogres and giants that he discovered on TSM (won't say where), ran through duerger in another area like a knife through butter, and none of the lizardmen he encountered posed any challenge at higher level. Never found the spiders and wandered in the cold looking for giants with not much luck, but neither was for lack of trying. He was far from a power build and had at best +1 gear, wearing light armor. When in party I never felt him to be at risk of death past level 7 other than in DMd events. I admit he ran to save his skin solo a few times, but that was rare, and sometimes he didn't even draw his blade to deal with goblins and kobolds. And I am not casting blame on anyone, build or builder, just commenting on the subject in the OP based on my experience which was not spent on tavern RP or confined to areas or encounters with no risk as you suggest.

[Ansha]

I'd take gritty fantasy over high fantasy any day.

I like gritty fantasy too--it has its place. I just don't think the Forgotten Realms setting lends itself to such a gameplay style. If you really want gritty fantasy, there's always The Black Company. They even released a d20-based PnP version of it a few years back. But I don't think you'd find it easy to convert NWN2 to such a setting, given the modifications they made to character classes and spellcasting.

[Rotku]

I hope to one day add something worthwhile to the list in my signature, maybe a beholder or a dragon or something.

Hah! I love that signature! That's brilliant! We'd make a great team. Could absolutely blow ALFA away with pointless deaths.