In Thorin's defense...

[Wild Wombat]

... and my own, I might add!

In reference to this in Thorin's Q&A thread http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=49441 :

As I said in the DM Turnout thread, it seems you cater/are influenced by a small group of 'elite' veterans. If elected, do you plan on representing this minority, compromising well with the other admins, or passing policy on personal beliefs?

For example, you say that you support public chats and arguments -- something I personally agree with. However, you also say that you do not support the "notion of 2 active PCs" -- something that is overwhelmingly supported by the player base. Hypothetically, if it was the responsibility of the office of the DMA (rather than the PA) to rule on the 2 PC policy, to either revoke or maintain, how would you act, given personal believes, the opinions of your friends, and the community opinions at large?

While I am left to imagine what was said in the DM Turnout thread since I can't access it, I have to think that since Thorin has been DMing me, I am one of these "elite" veterans. However, I can say that it is a happy coincidence that I have been around to be DMed by Thorin. I do not recall ever being DMed by him all those years ago when I was active, nor do I remember RPing with a PC of his. He was just a name on the forums, unless I am forgetting things (and given my advanced age, that is possible, of course).

So, if there is any perception that I am being catered to by Thorin or that I am influencing him, I can only try to assure you that it simply is not true. I have always been an inclusive player. I do not like to see people excluded from sessions. I do not like to see flame wars on the forums and nearly drove myself crazy years ago trying to put them out. From what I have seen Thorin is also inclusive. To my knowledge, he does not turn anybody away, even if they show up in mid session. Come one, come all seems to be his policy.

Now, should Thorin be elected to Lead Admin? I have no idea. In fact, in selfishness, I hope he doesn't win since it would most likely decrease his DM availability. I will say that I have enjoyed being DM'd by him, but does being a good DM make him a good Admin? Maybe, maybe not. The voters will decide whether we find out.

But how far I have come, to be referred to as elite. Grand Fromage is probably laughing without knowing why right about now.

(Since my humor is frequently misunderstood: I am not an elite player. I am frequently in awe of the RPing that others are capable of. I do my best, but it ain't that good.)

(And Foam, all is good from myu perspective. My feathers are not ruffled, so no worries there. I certainly don't mean to ruffle yours. I just felt a need to pipe up.)

[FoamBats4All]

I honestly don't know Thorin, and barely know Boom -- as far as the LA election goes, I'm not exactly well educated.

My post in his thread stemmed from the DM Turnout thread. To give some context: The DMA has asked, "If you are not DMing and there is an issue I can fix to make you want to DM please let me know here or by PM. I can't do everything, but I'm here to help." in the DM forums. A DM responded with, "Get rid of 2 PCs. Don't change time." which was followed by a few other comments on 2 PCs.

Thorin's comment was:

Yeah I'd also like to see how many people actually use 2PCs. Everyone I talk to, which is mainly veteran members, really dislike this policy.

To which I replied:

It's hard to narrow down a relationship between data and any one policy, particularly in a community that has so much flux.


All we can say is that the 2 PC policy was overwhelmingly agreed upon by players (78% support), DMs (65% support), and admins (80% support) in early January 2013, and went live February 1st, 2013.

Additionally, since January (our lowest month in the past couple of years), we have increased our hours played from 3,423.42 to 3,642.53, an increase of 6%. If we look at unique GSIDs, however, we see that we have dropped from 84 in January, to 79 in March. If we look at distinctive characters, we see that those 84 players were playing 137 characters, about 1.6 characters per player (the number being over 1 accounts for retirements, "oh sh*t that name is stupid" rerolls, and deaths, which is an interesting stat on its own). In March, we have 79 unique players playing 151 unique characters, which raised the ratio to 1.9 characters per player. So, a decent few people are using the policy, but not everyone is. Which was to be expected.

So to answer Swift, it's 79 players playing an average of 50 hours per month, when in January it was 84 players playing an average of 40 hours per month, an an increase of characters/players from 1.6 to 1.9. So 6% fewer players playing 19% more characters for 25% more hours/player.

To answer Thorin... well, you should probably realize that the people you talk to are the vast minority in ALFA, and cannot be reliably used as a sampling of ALFA's population -- something to definitely keep in mind dependent on future politics.

In any case if you want to make new polls to gauge community reaction post-policy, or to discuss it at length, I'd suggest a new thread. It'd be good to keep this one cleanly focused for Castano.

- - - - -

As for the topic at hand, I haven't been DMing (or teching much) because I haven't been playing. Other interests, politics, and general apathy towards roleplaying lately (primarily that last one) hasn't made me want to use any creative writing medium, ALFA included. Not much you can do about that! Though with the renewed vigor of the office of the DMA, and the lessening of contention between the administrative bodies, that may change.

- - - - -

The point being, we have a variety of opinions in ALFA. His opinion on this matter is in the minority, as are "everyone [he] talks to". He also claimed "[He] would engage in a public discussion in chat or the forums and hear from current Admins, previous Admins and Reps, and then the playerbase, before deciding anything." My opinion is that his last-quoted approach is a very good one. However, you have to look at the actual numbers, and not just at your friends -- otherwise you get a collection of loosely affiliated cliques, and not a diverse but functional community. "Something to definitely keep in mind."

To your point -- well, yes, not everyone who Thorin talks to is probably a long-standing member of the community. My phrasing stemmed from him saying that everyone he talked to disliked 2 PCs, while the actual community numbers say we have nearly 80% player approval of 2 PCs. That seems to indicate that his sampling of advisers all happen to fall in the minority in their opinions on that topic.

[Heero]

This is such a small community - tiny, really - and mutual respect is so, so low. Its mind boggling.

[Adanu]

Debating and airing out issues is not low respect. It's mature discussion.

Respecting someone does not mean you need to agree with them.

[Ithildur]

I suggest a rule (of thumb... please, not voting and more bureaucracy)... let's not call veterans 'elitist' (or more accurately, link the two words together on a regular basis), and let's not call newer folks 'PGing noobs' or whatever. Neither is fair, accurate, nor helpful.

Especially as I look at efforts like this:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=49445

A LOT of alfan's left over the years, not because of elite or PG rulesets, but because of some people's inability to get along. Last thing we'd want is to have folks come back after getting the emails to check us out again, to see more of the same going on between 'elites' and 'noobs'.

[Brokenbone]

And the infra strike for reposting DM forum threads to general goes to...

[Heero]

And the infra strike for reposting DM forum threads to general goes to...

LMAO

[danielmn]

I suggest a rule (of thumb... please, not voting and more bureaucracy)... let's not call veterans 'elitist' (or more accurately, link the two words together on a regular basis), and let's not call newer folks 'PGing noobs' or whatever. Neither is fair, accurate, nor helpful.

Especially as I look at efforts like this:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=49445

A LOT of alfan's left over the years, not because of elite or PG rulesets, but because of some people's inability to get along. Last thing we'd want is to have folks come back after getting the emails to check us out again, to see more of the same going on between 'elites' and 'noobs'.

Silence, you Pging elitist.

[Wild Wombat]

Thanks, Foam. I appreciate the response.

I have been called a n00b many, many times. Now I am proud to be an elite n00b!

Guys, tempest in a teapot here. Seriously. I had a point to make and Foam gave me a great reply that gave me a better understanding. No harm that I see, so hopefully no foul either.

[Ithildur]

I suggest a rule (of thumb... please, not voting and more bureaucracy)... let's not call veterans 'elitist' (or more accurately, link the two words together on a regular basis), and let's not call newer folks 'PGing noobs' or whatever. Neither is fair, accurate, nor helpful.

Especially as I look at efforts like this:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=49445

A LOT of alfan's left over the years, not because of elite or PG rulesets, but because of some people's inability to get along. Last thing we'd want is to have folks come back after getting the emails to check us out again, to see more of the same going on between 'elites' and 'noobs'.

Silence, you Pging elitist.

No, you, you intentionally self-nerfing noob! Stop making silly posts and DM!!!

[Magile]

And the infra strike for reposting DM forum threads to general goes to...

LMAO

The fact that an entirely different thread was created by someone not 100% knowledgeable of the situation, allowing for misconceptions and misunderstandings to be made, deserved a proper and informative response. The only complete and direct quote was Foam's own, as best as I can see, with the rest being snippets without any specific name being mentioned.

I don't see a strike here.

[maxcell]

Debating and airing out issues is not low respect. It's mature discussion.

Respecting someone does not mean you need to agree with them.

A second historic moment, I am in agreement again with Adanu.

FoamBats4All wrote:
As I said in the DM Turnout thread, it seems you cater/are influenced by a small group of 'elite' veterans. If elected, do you plan on representing this minority, compromising well with the other admins, or passing policy on personal beliefs?

For example, you say that you support public chats and arguments -- something I personally agree with. However, you also say that you do not support the "notion of 2 active PCs" -- something that is overwhelmingly supported by the player base. Hypothetically, if it was the responsibility of the office of the DMA (rather than the PA) to rule on the 2 PC policy, to either revoke or maintain, how would you act, given personal believes, the opinions of your friends, and the community opinions at large?

The inverse is that you are only talking to the people that supported the decision while ignoring the views of those who did not.

Thorin's personal view on the subject is just that, and he has already stated that he would seek the input of the community as LA, and as an LA should.

Also, your numbers show clearly that the idea which was toted as a means to grow Alfa, has so far not worked. Less new players, less active members. the only thing it did successfully for those that supported it, was to get those individuals to play more.

Once again. I was right. You were wrong. Nanny Nanny poo poo, stick your head in doo doo.

[FoamBats4All]

Debating and airing out issues is not low respect. It's mature discussion.

Respecting someone does not mean you need to agree with them.

A second historic moment, I am in agreement again with Adanu.

FoamBats4All wrote:
As I said in the DM Turnout thread, it seems you cater/are influenced by a small group of 'elite' veterans. If elected, do you plan on representing this minority, compromising well with the other admins, or passing policy on personal beliefs?

For example, you say that you support public chats and arguments -- something I personally agree with. However, you also say that you do not support the "notion of 2 active PCs" -- something that is overwhelmingly supported by the player base. Hypothetically, if it was the responsibility of the office of the DMA (rather than the PA) to rule on the 2 PC policy, to either revoke or maintain, how would you act, given personal believes, the opinions of your friends, and the community opinions at large?

The inverse is that you are only talking to the people that supported the decision while ignoring the views of those who did not.

Thorin's personal view on the subject is just that, and he has already stated that he would seek the input of the community as LA, and as an LA should.

Also, your numbers show clearly that the idea which was toted as a means to grow Alfa, has so far not worked. Less new players, less active members. the only thing it did successfully for those that supported it, was to get those individuals to play more.

Once again. I was right. You were wrong. Nanny Nanny poo poo, stick your head in doo doo.

Explain to me the logic behind that one? I'm not "talking" to any group. I'm giving polls that any active member of ALFA could vote in. The only people I'm not taking into account is the people who don't vote/visit the forums.

Again, if you actually read what I typed, you'd know that I agree with Thorin's view that the community should be polled. Fully. Not just a select few that are poked on IRC. Which is the point I was trying to make. Your group of advisers that provide 0% support for 1 policy may actually be a minority when the community at large has 80% support.

As for growing ALFA, again, let me quote myself:

It's hard to narrow down a relationship between data and any one policy, particularly in a community that has so much flux.

Up until the turn of the year, we were in an 8 month downwards trend. Now we are not. Is 2 PCs to blame? Probably not, or not in full. Statistics are hard, and we don't have a super clear picture of every variable (our charter doesn't allow us to put snoopware in your brains/houses/IM clients).

Those are, like, numbers or something. I hear they don't give a damn about your opinion or my opinion, or if you proclaim yourself winner of whatever point it is you are trying to convey.

In other news...

Debating and airing out issues is not low respect. It's mature discussion.

A second historic moment, I am in agreement again with Adanu.
...
Nanny Nanny poo poo, stick your head in doo doo.

[Castano]

In ALFA's defense, Greengrass, the emails I want to send out to old players and a bunch of other crap is more important than yet another flame war over 2 PCS.

[Adanu]

In ALFA's defense, Greengrass, the emails I want to send out to old players and a bunch of other crap is more important than yet another flame war over 2 PCS.

This. Let's not get caught up in wars of semantics over things that are obviously misinterpreted.

What's important here is not two PCs, but making ALFA better for all and not jumping off the cliff into those spikey rocks without a bungie cord and a tree.