Mind wards and such for front line fighters . . .

[SCI-kick]

Just posting this to try and avoid disasters like what happened last night . . .

If you are a caster and have protection spells that can help your fellow companions, especially the front line tank, then you should probably offer them for the safety of the party. The tank shouldn't have to beg your character for a ward as you buff yourself for whatever lies ahead.

That whole debacle last night could have been avoided by Wayfarer using a simple Level. 1 spell slot to protect Kalo from mind spells with Protection from Evil. It's just unfathomable why he wouldn't at least try to offer wards to the guy up front.

And, it's tiresome hearing you all blame his demise on his own aggressive actions. It's Kalo's job to try and exploit weaknesses, and he had the Arcanist and Zealot hurt bad until the party left him and then he got Hold Personed . . . Has his mind been warded, he would have cut them to pieces, mission accomplished.

Kalo will be very cautious about who he travels with from now on, as he does not suffer cowardice. And frankly, if your style of play in only preservation of your own toon and running as others fall, I don't care to play with you. It's just not fun.

[Wild Wombat]

Sorry to hear this, Sci-K. I was not there last night, so I can't speak to this specific incident. However, tactics for us seem to be a recurring problem. Part of it can be blamed on having huge groups (8 or more players) but it can also happen with a smaller group. (Note that I am not claiming to be an effective party leader. I have played with effective party leaders and I know that I ain't one!)

Failing a Will Save is my greatest fear as well. Murgen is always out front, sometimes caught with the enemy between him and the rest of the group. However, for fighters like Kalo and Arryn, it is even worse. Murgen has been caught behind the lines and failed a Will Save against "Fear" but was still in stealth and wandered around aimlessly, still unseen. However, for fighters if they fail a will Save like that they are completely helpless.

FYI, back in the day the one and only time that Croaker "croaked" was after failing a Will Save and just got pulverized as I sat banging the keyboard.

[SCI-kick]

Well , if you want to be a front line tank cleric hybrid (Wayfarer), and only mind ward yourself, well then you should be the one trying to take out the spellcasters, not the one falling back with the lowbies.

Here’s how the battle went down from Kalo’s eyes, maybe you can help point out some bad strategy fails:

1. Enemy identified ( cultists - at least one caster with swordsmen) . We decide to flank around them and try a luring maneuver with Tahal shooting an arrow to draw.

2. We prepare- Kalo takes a few potions for elements and ability enhancement, (doesn’t have mind protection potion or he’d carry a dozen at all times) , Wayfarer buffs himself with the various cleric spells available to him, assuming mind ward Prot. From Evil among them.

3. Battle begins, the tactic works, initially. Swordsmen AND spellcasters (Zealot and Mage) charge. Kalo starts beating up the mage and Zealot. He crits the mage , who I think is stoneskined because it only does 20 damage. The mage backs up and drinks a big heal potion. Pretty sure Wayfarer is next to Kalo still.

4. Somehow swordsman (and spider summon?) get behind ranks. Wayfarer turns and leaves Kalo alone to deal with casters as he goes to help the lowbies (Tahal and Luther). Kalo has Zealot “badly wounded”, crits mage again , who is now “near death”. Kalo is “barely injured”

5. Kalo with no mind ward fails Hold Person save, he’s still “barely injured”. Kalo’s last sight of party is Wayfarers back running away . Wayfarer gets poisoned by spider , I think. Kalo stands there held, Zealot casts repeated Cause Wounds on him. Kalo hears the sounds of battle get further away, as he stands alone getting his life sapped away.

6. Hold person ends, Kalo begins chugging potions, but it’s too late. With no help and companions now in full retreat, Kalo succumbs to two enemies he could have sliced apart in two rounds had his mind been protected by a level 1 spell.

[Wild Wombat]

Nothing ingenious, but...

Obviously, it seems that protection from evil should be added as a requirement for those most vulnerable - if it is available. But at some point, even if protection from evil is SOP, when spells get depleted the choice has to be made between taking risks and retreating. As a group, I mean. (I am self-professed chicken, so, one of the few things I am not afraid of is retreating!) So, making sure that there is a fallback/retreat option is crucial - difficult when things spawn in rooms you just cleared or you are in a large space with exposed flanks, but any plan should see retreat as a likely option.

The other tactic is the one that Gaia has done all along and Valn99 does as well (witness Tuesday evening on DF): having a cleric along whose main responsibility is to heal the rest of the party. In melee, unless there are undead to turn, that should be the duty of the cleric most (80% - ?) of the time. The cleric should probably remain invisible while doing this, so that he is not distracted. Not the most exciting responsibility, but essential. If there is no cleric along, or somebody taking up the role of DH (Designated Healer), well, there is a huge flaw in the makeup of the party that makes it even more difficult to overcome tactical mistakes. (But invis potions are expensive, and the cleric should be compensated for using them, another pet peeve of mine!)

I am in favor of clearly defined roles, including who gathers loot - and believe it or not, this does have something to do with survival. Murgen almost never gathers loot. It is not his job plus he does not want to be weighed down. It has gotten a lot better, but one of the first things that I noticed when I started playing again back in January is that everybody was running around like mad picking up loot after a battle. It seemed to me that it was because they knew that if they didn't they would not get their fair share of the loot. This uncertainty of equitable loot sharing also encourages people to pick up loot during melee! Which should never happen, but I have seen it a lot more frequently than I would like.

Oh and always wait for the scout to report back (which it seems the party did last night). I think that there is a PC around that has mentioned that IC.

[Twilighteyes]

I have a couple of thoughts on the overall subject of buffs from the caster's perspective. I am very sorry this adventure did not turn out well.

I have tried to see about creating a comprehensive "Spell Strategy" for a few casters once, but everyone seemed pretty satisfied by their role as they played it. So casters tend to do their own thing.

Myfanwy is a druid, and so doesn't have as many buffs as a cleric does, but she can heal, cast a better barkskin than the potion version (+4 over +3) and Bull Strength. She is more than happy to buff anyone, but it is not possible to determine what people need just by looking at them - everyone has STR, AC. and CON increased. But by item, potion, or spell? Is a buff from her going to be useful or wasted?

Also based on party composition there is no way to tell up front how many buffs might be needed. Sometimes you have two clerics along, sometimes none. I've ended up using buffs on summons because no one else needed them.

Finally, when we start adventures, everyone seems to be in a big hurry to get going to wherever. I would prefer to take five minutes and see who needs buffs and who can provide them, then select spells and rest.

If your toon needs or could use a buff, please ask! I want to be useful. I want to use my characters abilities. So please don't be shy! I will try to do a better job of asking at the start of the adventure.

I think with better communication we can increase party effectiveness.

Just my two cents.

[dergon darkhelm]

xxxxx

[Wild Wombat]

Since I re-re-restarted playing in ALFA back in January, I have enjoyed playing with both of you. I really do not like seeing any kind of disagreement like this. I devoted so much effort into heading off or resolving issues between players that somebody gave the nickname "ALFA's Care Bear" and Wynna asked me to be one of the first Player Reps. A long ago player named Leadfeather even created the little ALFA Care Bear gif you see to the right.

So, please guys, try to work this out. We do not have nearly enough players now to have issues between two very active players...

Sci-Kick: I have never thought Dergon was the sort of player - or Wayfarer the kind of PC for that matter - that would leave somebody hanging out to dry. Please try to look at whatever happened last night with the knowledge that in this game we play it is very difficult to really communicate. Please take a deep breath, step back and try to see how it may have looked from Dergon's perspective. There is a natural tendency when we play for the higher levels to look out for the lower levels first. It seems like that worked to your detriment.

Dergon: Try to see Sci-Kick's post as venting frustration. Kalo died several times recently and in ways that, in hindsight at least, could have been prevented.

Both of you, please try to put last night and this morning behind you. Try to work this out. We need both of you to keep playing. If you need a cooling off period, please make it a short one.

[SCI-kick]

Agreed , Mr. Wombat.

The whole thing was terribly botched from the start. I really wasn’t even going to play, was just getting un-quarantined....but ayergo mentioned it and the others asked for help, so I said okay I’ll get acquainted IC with the low levels. Big mistake, because it was under estimating from the start. I’m pretty sure given a “do-over” trial, we win that battle in a route, 9 times out of 10.

But here’s fair warning to new PCs and all PCs for that matter...

If your Character falls while Kalo is engaged with a potentially deadly foe that can kill him, he’s not going to stop fighting just to try and save you, as that could cause 2 dead PCs instead of 1. That’s how TPKs happen, disengaging. Though he’ll try to heal you after the foe is dispatched.

Also, Kalo has always been the tip of the sword, always will be. He tries to cause chaos, break ranks, take out spellcasters. So whenever there is a retreat , he is always last to know and often can get left behind.

Arianna even said retreat isn’t in his vocabulary, so he almost never calls retreat. As long as anyone is fighting , so will he.

Just a few things to remember in the future

[Rumple C]

Potions of clarity are a thing as I saw yesterday. Might be worth getting one for Kalo. Just in case.

[oldgrayrogue]

My solution to this kind of an occurrence is always to work it out ICly. Stuff can get annoying or distracting OOCly, especially in a situation where you feel your PC was left alone to die ICly. I'm not saying that happened because I was not there but it certainly can feel that way sometimes. I always viewed this as fodder for RP myself. Sci, just stick to reactions to this from Kalo's perspectives. Forget about D&D player group buffing tactics. My rule of thumb is if it didn't happen IC it didn't happen. So if there was no IC discussion about mind wards and what not, well then that's not fair game. What is fair game is if ICly Kalo felt abandoned by the group during combat. RP that with the members of the group. Channel some of that OOC frustration you are feeling into some nice storytelling by focusing on Kalo's IC reactions to the situation. Some IC conflict over this situation between Kalo and Wayfarer could be real fun for both you and Dergon. Ask the Carebear -- I love IC conflict RP between characters . (and I am not necessarily talking about CvC either). On the other hand, OOC issues between players is never fun. Having played with both of you a long while I doubt there were any OOC considerations going on on either side that led to what you describe.

If I have one very, very, very small constructive criticism of the play style on the NWN servers its that there can be a bit too much OOC crossover for player tactics and what not in our RP. Kind of the opposite of your issue Sci. When its a super smart wizard leader of the group like Keryn making those calls it makes sense. But all of our PCs can't be super battle tactic masters right? Flaws and mistakes that happen because of IC ineptitude add depth to the story and RP in my view. When frustrating stuff happens, try to search for an IC explanation and then roll with that as a jump off for your RP. Your toon might even be wrong about the circumstances! But that's OK, its IC and if it leads to some type of conflict ICly that is usual interesting and fun. Anyway, just my two cents. I have always felt that approaching the game from an OOC standpoint of player tactics and actions rather than IC toon actions inevitably can lead to bad feelings and who wants that.

*runs off and OOCly plans different ways to kill Murgen*

[Wild Wombat]

Channel some of that OOC frustration you are feeling into some nice storytelling by focusing on Kalo's IC reactions to the situation. Some IC conflict over this situation ... Ask the Carebear -- I love IC conflict RP between characters . (and I am not necessarily talking about CvC either).

On the other hand, OOC issues between players is never fun. Having played with both of you a long while I doubt there were any OOC considerations going on on either side that led to what you describe.

*runs off and OOCly plans different ways to kill Murgen*

For a complete idiot, OGR can once in a while say some smart things. Oh, did I let my OOC feelings come through?

Yeah, I overreacted two Fridays ago, and thus Murgen did, but I really couldn't see my to having Murgen just pretend that it did not happen: he basically felt betrayed, had a tantrum and gave the whole server the finger, taking his traps to play on Daggerford! So, I wrapped it into Murgen's story, which by happy coincidence had him getting a level of Shadowdancer that very same night. A shadow passed over his soul, if you will, so he changed. All because I overreacted. But truth be told, I think it added another level of depth to the character.

Plus it gave him yet another chance to come extremely close to CvC with another of OGR's PCs! Win / win!

[ayergo]

Going to lock this one for now, with one final thing to keep in mind:

Hanging lantern has NPCs waiting to cast buffs on you... for a price. If there is a buff you want that's not there let me know and I'll try and add it.