NWN2: Crafting

[Castano]

Amar: a great proposal.

My criticism remains...so long as a live DM is needed to RP each and every instance of the start of crafting there will never be a viable system....we simply don't have the personel for it.

I'd rather you guys went a no sellable value/static crafting route for mundane items and relegated magical & masterwork items crafting to a DM only system...e.g. what is in the D&D manuals. -- This prevents abuse.

PCs will make what mundane items they need and make what they can trade with other PCs thus enhancing their gaming experience. PCs can make magic items per the D&D rules. (3.x or whatever ya'll decide)

And relegate masterwork items to true craftmasters...e.g. a guy with 10+ levels worth of smithing who isn't just doing it as a hobby.


Basically crafting of regular gear should be:

1. DM independent
2. Not sellable
3. Not have a litany of rules and steps
4. Run off a static script (can code in PC limits on number of items etc.)

Crafting of masterwork and magic gear should be:

1. DM handled per the AD&D ruleset (modified if need be due to ALFA's gp regime)

just my two cents.

[ç i p h é r]

I like the proposal in general, but would like to make specific suggestions. Should we discuss that here?

I also think it might be appropriate to have two separate proposals so we can actually get somewhere with this; One for mundane/masterwork items and one for magical items. The former seems to have very few objections so let's not lump it in with the more contentious magical item crafting proposal. Also, it's more manageable this way. The bigger the proposal, the more time it will take to discuss the details and more overwhelming it will seem to many.

[Amar]

cipher,go ahead and give your input either here or by PM. Im anxious to here your thoughts.

[ç i p h é r]

Ok, I'll be posting in segments so it's more manageable.

General Crafting:
1. All crafting requires RP when the item is begun and finished. The time count down for an item does not begin till this first RP session, ie no starting an item and RPing the starting the item a week down the road. PCs must RP crafting at least once a week with their DM during the process (situational exceptions due to real life will be allowed).

2. Crafting will require a PC to have all the appropriate feats, when they are added to ALFA, see Appendix A. Remakes should be allowed for the first 3 months, if past RP dictates so.

3. A PC may not participate in any plots or adventures during their crafting time if they are making magical items, with one exception. If the plot they are involved in during the time is directly related to the crafting of the item they may participate in it. They may still gain RP XP as normal and XP from the plot they may be in. If they are making mundane items, they may quest and adventure as normal, but their time questing counts against their crafting time, adding time to it in increments of real life days.

4. DMs may rule that crafting an item may take up to 50% longer or shorter amounts of time by the situation or plot involvement.

5. DMs have final ruling on what components are needed for an item's creation but it is suggested they use the predesigned tables to determine the CR for the quest, see Appendix B. The value of any components quested for are to be removed from the crafting cost.

6. All PC made items will be marked plot, and have a disclaimer in their description reading “Crafted by [PC's Name].” They may be traded only to other players, with all rules against “twinking” applied to abuse.

7. DMs are encouraged to be reasonable when deciding factors for crafting

#3. I think the constraint is too tight for magical items to be of any use or fun. No craftsman would (or physically could for that matter) ever work straight through on something which took days to create. The D&D magical creation guideline suggests that the caster works for 8 hours each day (which is in line with the average person's work day in RL). He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive. The caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. So, you can still adventure but only for so much time in between each crafting session. For simplicity, let's say you only have 32 hours worth of adventuring time available to you in between each attempt (that's 16 hours of free time each day for 2 days end to end).

This could reasonably be scripted. Once a PC start the process, they cannot command their PC for the duration (say 8 IG hours) after which the timer begins. If they fail to return to crafting within the 32 hours, they lose what they started including material and XP costs. The 8 IG hours might be a bit rough to handle (53 RL minutes)....so a more reasonable duration might be more appropriate for a real-time game (1 - 15 minutes?). This obviates the need for DM involvement to ensure it's being done, which is perhaps for the best as there's really no RP involved in crafting an item other than concentrating. The main point really, for me, is that we honor the time required to create the item such that it's not available to the player sooner than it should be. The actual crafting simulation is of lesser importance and really a gameplay issue.

One thing that's missing is that a character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the item under-construction are wasted.

[ç i p h é r]

Mundane requirements seem fine, but masterwork item creation is missing and there are some things I think we should add to the materials list:

Armorsmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Any non-magical armor or shield

Ore or Leather or both depending on what's being created. Leather armor requires no metal, but studded leather would, for example. Also, I think most metal armor requires some lining to avoid bruising or cutting the flesh beneath it, so it's best to assume that this is part of the creation process.

Bowmaking
Base Items: Wood
Notes:
Examples: Any non-magical longbow, shortbow, composite or composite with high strength ratig, arrows

Maybe hemp, silk, or rope as well for the bowstring?

A few notable absences:

Tanning - creating workable leather from raw animal hides
Tinkering - creation of engineered items (use your imagination)
Brewing - beers, ales, and all manner of alcoholic beverages (Dwarves will be angry with you for this omission, Amar )
Fletching - creating arrows from wood

Optional skills:
Mining - the harvesting of ore and gems
Woodcutting - the harvesting of wood
Skinning - the harvesting of animal skins
Gemcutting - the creation of quality gems
Smelting - the creation of quality metals from ore

For masterwork item creation (required as base items for magical item creation), the mundane item creation rules apply where the masterwork component is treated as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is created.

[ç i p h é r]

A few issues with magical item creation.

I really like the idea of components imbuing magical abilities, but why are +1 and +2 items not listed?

The level requirements shown only go up to +6 ( level 18 ). What about epic magic items (+11 to +20 bonuses)? Are these allowed...? According to your scale, you'd need to be level 60 to craft a +20 item (3 x modifier). So, in order for it to work in NWN, you'd have to drop the multiplier to x2 for +11 and beyond, so lvl 22 - lvl 40 for +11 through +20, respectively.

Also, wands/rods/staves are not specifically noted, but I expect all that is required to add spell charges is the desired spell and the appropriate item (weapon?). Might need to clarify that.

[ç i p h é r]

One idea to consider is gating crafting skill ranks or success with ranks in the profession skill. In IC terms, it's hard to fathom how an adventurer might become a master craftsman w/o first having achieved some degree of experience in the relevant profession. However, I'd only suggest this if crafting was too easy or somehow becoming ubiquitous. It'll help slow down progress by adding another layer of requirements to advance. Obviously, this is a house rule.

0 - 5 ranks = apprentice
5 - 10 ranks = novice
10 - 15 ranks = journeyman
15 - 20 ranks = expert

[Fionn]

Every system I've seen or heard that had an 'extra' crafting point system on top of the regular point system rapidly forced everyone to play uber crafters to keep up, or pissed gold in the streets.

You need a system where a PC must give something up if they want to get really good at it. I've no issue with a Ftr that can make a sword, or repair a wagon wheel. When that same fighter splits his attention between melee and crafting, yet excells at both, we have an issue.

Tie it into d20 skills, or leave it out.

[Amar]

Ok, I'll be posting in segments so it's more manageable.

General Crafting:
1. All crafting requires RP when the item is begun and finished. The time count down for an item does not begin till this first RP session, ie no starting an item and RPing the starting the item a week down the road. PCs must RP crafting at least once a week with their DM during the process (situational exceptions due to real life will be allowed).

2. Crafting will require a PC to have all the appropriate feats, when they are added to ALFA, see Appendix A. Remakes should be allowed for the first 3 months, if past RP dictates so.

3. A PC may not participate in any plots or adventures during their crafting time if they are making magical items, with one exception. If the plot they are involved in during the time is directly related to the crafting of the item they may participate in it. They may still gain RP XP as normal and XP from the plot they may be in. If they are making mundane items, they may quest and adventure as normal, but their time questing counts against their crafting time, adding time to it in increments of real life days.

4. DMs may rule that crafting an item may take up to 50% longer or shorter amounts of time by the situation or plot involvement.

5. DMs have final ruling on what components are needed for an item's creation but it is suggested they use the predesigned tables to determine the CR for the quest, see Appendix B. The value of any components quested for are to be removed from the crafting cost.

6. All PC made items will be marked plot, and have a disclaimer in their description reading “Crafted by [PC's Name].” They may be traded only to other players, with all rules against “twinking” applied to abuse.

7. DMs are encouraged to be reasonable when deciding factors for crafting

#3. I think the constraint is too tight for magical items to be of any use or fun. No craftsman would (or physically could for that matter) ever work straight through on something which took days to create. The D&D magical creation guideline suggests that the caster works for 8 hours each day (which is in line with the average person's work day in RL). He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive. The caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. So, you can still adventure but only for so much time in between each crafting session. For simplicity, let's say you only have 32 hours worth of adventuring time available to you in between each attempt (that's 16 hours of free time each day for 2 days end to end).

This could reasonably be scripted. Once a PC start the process, they cannot command their PC for the duration (say 8 IG hours) after which the timer begins. If they fail to return to crafting within the 32 hours, they lose what they started including material and XP costs. The 8 IG hours might be a bit rough to handle (53 RL minutes)....so a more reasonable duration might be more appropriate for a real-time game (1 - 15 minutes?). This obviates the need for DM involvement to ensure it's being done, which is perhaps for the best as there's really no RP involved in crafting an item other than concentrating. The main point really, for me, is that we honor the time required to create the item such that it's not available to the player sooner than it should be. The actual crafting simulation is of lesser importance and really a gameplay issue.

One thing that's missing is that a character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the item under-construction are wasted.

DMG states that while crafting the PC cannot engage in any straining actions. No adventuring, excess spellcasting, fighting, etc..

At first it was opened so that all on-server questing could remain while a PC was crafting, but this was disliked. In fact, I do not believe the questing only for the item supplies is even liked (but since ive had no responses, not too sure) for being too lenient

Still looking for a better resolution, and since i dont think magical crafting will ever be scripted (or not for a long time at least) there is little way to script the time constraints along with it.

[Amar]

Mundane requirements seem fine, but masterwork item creation is missing and there are some things I think we should add to the materials list:

Armorsmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Any non-magical armor or shield

Ore or Leather or both depending on what's being created. Leather armor requires no metal, but studded leather would, for example. Also, I think most metal armor requires some lining to avoid bruising or cutting the flesh beneath it, so it's best to assume that this is part of the creation process.

Bowmaking
Base Items: Wood
Notes:
Examples: Any non-magical longbow, shortbow, composite or composite with high strength ratig, arrows

Maybe hemp, silk, or rope as well for the bowstring?

A few notable absences:

Tanning - creating workable leather from raw animal hides
Tinkering - creation of engineered items (use your imagination)
Brewing - beers, ales, and all manner of alcoholic beverages (Dwarves will be angry with you for this omission, Amar )
Fletching - creating arrows from wood

Optional skills:
Mining - the harvesting of ore and gems
Woodcutting - the harvesting of wood
Skinning - the harvesting of animal skins
Gemcutting - the creation of quality gems
Smelting - the creation of quality metals from ore

Tinkering is not listed in the PHB, and can fall into so many different categories. And would need a new DC chart. Its best to let it fall to the DMs IMO. And with such an endless-possibility smithing, id hate to imagine scripting all the odd devices for it.
Brewing - See cooking.
Fletching - See bowmaking:
"Examples: Any non-magical longbow, shortbow, composite or composite with high strength ratig, arrows "

Mining, Woodcutting, Skinning, Gemcutting, Smelting, & Tanning is where we keep control of the economy in DM hands rather than handing it all over to the players. This is where the raw materials come from and its best if the DMs can dictate that distribution. Its nice to want to play a miner or something, but its also a wealth hole.

For masterwork item creation (required as base items for magical item creation), the mundane item creation rules apply where the masterwork component is treated as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is created.

Forgot to include that they are seperate. Thanks.

[Amar]

A few issues with magical item creation.

I really like the idea of components imbuing magical abilities, but why are +1 and +2 items not listed?

The level requirements shown only go up to +6 ( level 18 ). What about epic magic items (+11 to +20 bonuses)? Are these allowed...? According to your scale, you'd need to be level 60 to craft a +20 item (3 x modifier). So, in order for it to work in NWN, you'd have to drop the multiplier to x2 for +11 and beyond, so lvl 22 - lvl 40 for +11 through +20, respectively.

Also, wands/rods/staves are not specifically noted, but I expect all that is required to add spell charges is the desired spell and the appropriate item (weapon?). Might need to clarify that.

+1 and +2 items are not listed because in the proposal they do not require questing for components. meaning it is assumed the primary peices of the components are readily available in most situations, just as with many spells that normally require pricey components.

The reason for this is to keep low level crafting mages from being tied up in quests for long amounts of time to make a simple little +1 flaming sword or a +3 cloak of move silent. It would have been a +1 restriction, but with the requirement of +1 for magical properties that means only one type of magic could ever be imbued onto armour/weapons without having to quest.

abilities higher than +6, they would simply not be craftable in ALFA. ALFA is not an epic campaign and epic items will never be craftable. Items higher than +6 should be issued with utmost caution.


Charged items are not to be rechargable. They can be re-enchanted at full charges however. But recharging is not cannon and causes many balance issues. The spell levels you can make of them by character level are noted in the list.

[Amar]

One idea to consider is gating crafting skill ranks or success with ranks in the profession skill. In IC terms, it's hard to fathom how an adventurer might become a master craftsman w/o first having achieved some degree of experience in the relevant profession. However, I'd only suggest this if crafting was too easy or somehow becoming ubiquitous. It'll help slow down progress by adding another layer of requirements to advance. Obviously, this is a house rule.

0 - 5 ranks = apprentice
5 - 10 ranks = novice
10 - 15 ranks = journeyman
15 - 20 ranks = expert

First, crafting skills will still be skills. Anything else is simply an endless well of coin.

Second, ive grown tired of a perverse view of how skill mastery works.

Take a look at the Loremaster PrC, they get Instant Mastery ability. Instant Mastery is an immediate 4 ranks in a skill.

0, is untrained of course. This doesnt mean youve never done it, just that you dont have much experience with it.

1, means youve had some training, you are likely an apprentice.

2, you are closing your apprenticeship

3-4, you are a novice of your skill/trade

5-6, you are a journeyman

7-8, you are an expert

9-10, you are a master of your craft.

Think about that, +9 or 10 check means you can take 10 and make a masterwork item successfully every time.

That is also a level requirement of 6 or 7. Very few commoners will ever reach that before dieing of old age.

To expect them to get 15 ranks before they are masters of a craft is absurd.

PCs and adventurers are exceptional they are learned as much as they can by a teacher and are ready to set out on their own. Theyll be better even at level 1 than most any commoner near them at what they do.

[ç i p h é r]

DMG states that while crafting the PC cannot engage in any straining actions. No adventuring, excess spellcasting, fighting, etc..

At first it was opened so that all on-server questing could remain while a PC was crafting, but this was disliked. In fact, I do not believe the questing only for the item supplies is even liked (but since ive had no responses, not too sure) for being too lenient

Still looking for a better resolution, and since i dont think magical crafting will ever be scripted (or not for a long time at least) there is little way to script the time constraints along with it.

I missed these discussion obviously so sorry if I'm revisiting covered territory, but then again, maybe we need to reconsider some of those positions.

In my PnP D&D group, we assume time passes in between our gaming sessions when crafting. If we could make the same allowance here, it would be more palatable. In other words, don't require the PC to be logged in to assume time has passed and that crafting is occuring. Doing that will pretty much make magical item creation a pointless proposal as I can't see anyone under any circumstances giving up their free time to log into a game and essentially do nothing.

Otherwise, let's drop the DMG guideline in favor of the more general one in the PHB. Work for 8 hours, play for 16 (or 32 back to back). If we want to limit activities, then let's state that the player can only rest ONCE in between crafting sessions. That by itself won't exclude a PC from adventuring, but it will limit how much they can do (fighting, distance traveled, etc), and still seems to be within the spirit of the PHB rule (where rest represents the turning of a day).

What do you think?

[AlmightyTDawg]

The thing that's always going to exist about magical crafting is how easily it can be exploited. For all intents and purposes, crafting is creating wealth out of nowhere. It doesn't come with associated experience, in fact it involves taking experience away, so it has the capacity to be a real eyesore on any attempt to keep things within bounds - at least with players who are "me-first" or rules lawyerish in bent.

Basically, magical crafting is a bootstrapping methodology. And simply based on NPC tables or NPC lists, there has to be an implicit assumption that because someone "can" make something doesn't mean they do. From a purely number-crunching look, characters lag behind items they "could" create and indeed the limitations of feats like "Ancestral Relic" or recommended wealth levels pale compared to what a motivated crafter could do if you just "did the math." The presumption has to be that there are other, unspoken limitng factors involved.

The problem is that no one's going to buy into a system that relies entirely on DM discretion as its limiting factor when there's the capacity to run crazy in the economy. The trouble is figuring out limitations for "fun" that don't contain obvious exploits for the rules lawyers of the crowd.

I think Amar and the group have done a great job so far of trying to toe that line so far. I think they were very responsive to my points/critcism awhile ago, and at the very least, I think they deserve to have their proposal given a trial run through ALFA1 to try to learn some lessons for NWN2's campaign.

Perhaps the way to go is that through NWN1 require all magical crafting to be documented - things like Start Date, End Date, adventuring in between, quest details. Maybe we could get a sense of how individual crafters evolve/play along, and what trouble DMs have in making their decisions. I don't think we're going to get a heck of a lot more out of armchair quarterbacking Crafting - I think we need to make it happen and learn the lessons real-time.

[ç i p h é r]

Mining, Woodcutting, Skinning, Gemcutting, Smelting, & Tanning is where we keep control of the economy in DM hands rather than handing it all over to the players. This is where the raw materials come from and its best if the DMs can dictate that distribution. Its nice to want to play a miner or something, but its also a wealth hole.

While that makes sense, I think that really erodes the usefulness of the crafting system. Its primary benefit would be to give PCs an IC motivation to do something on their own. While I don't mind DM involvement, it's really more of a compromise to aid retention, which a good number of people here are concerned about. The way to eliminate the wealth hole is to not allow craftables to be sold to NPCs or limit the quantities that can be sold to one (based on npc attitude? inventory?). And if gold drops are inline with wealth standards as are DM rewards, the economy should be reasonably well regulated.

As for arrows being part of the bowmaking skill, I've always found that to be rather odd. Fletching is indeed a skill independent of bow making, and a Fletcher indeed a profession. So, let's house rule it, but it's not really a big deal either way.

My main motiviation behind Tinkering was to pay homage to the almighty Gnome. It could effectively be a skill to create random, silly things (even junk perhaps). Mostly an RP idea but it could also be an avenue to introduce mundane items with interesting properties. Again, not a big deal, just thinking of making allowances for some fun and creativity.