Proposal system has failed - server selection team disolve

[ç i p h é r]

I don't think our rules adequately answer that question Aelred. At worst, it's a 30 day restriction if builders are subject to DM rules. The whole issue could be skirted though by purely doing build work: terrain, buildings, placeables, and lighting. That's at least 2/3 of the work involved.

[PensivesWetness]

Outsource the building (of servers/Moduals) to 3rd world computer slave trades in India or China...

(But then, they'd put inflated code for increased protein or something...)

Seriously, because the product (NWN2) is sooo weighty, working on a single base mod as a template for clones, varients, individual mods sounds like a better idea...

however communistic it seems...

I'm just waiting on the next expansion that adds pink hair...

[Teric neDhalir]

I haven't seen any mention of YATT (the heightmap/texturemap plugin) in the discussions on these boards. No one else tried it? Or understand what it does? If you look at the High Moor image I posted on the NWN2 Screenshot thread you might be surprised to learn that that is about three minutes work; I haven't used any of the toolset terrain tools, all of the terrain and texturing is generated from imported images (1 x heightmap and 3 x fractal noise maps for the textures).

In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that I could design, generate and export seamless data for a whole server in about two hours. You would need to import the data into the toolset an area at a time, but it's much quicker than doing it by hand.

The only problem, of course, is you then have to add detail. Which is where the toolset becomes a black hole. People have been complimentary about the forest screenshots I posted, but that's nine days' work and I'm maybe two thirds done (and I didn't do the terrain, I'm just putting the trees on)... The reason we don't have many builders is because if you don't really want to do it the level of drudgery involved is impossibly high

[Mikayla]

Having seen what a nightmare the toolset is, and having seen that we do not appear to have progress across all the original servers, I have no problem revisiting the way in which we look to building - that said, I have to plead a little ignorance when it comes to knowing just how far the various servers have progressed.

[Rick7475]

Having seen what a nightmare the toolset is, and having seen that we do not appear to have progress across all the original servers, I have no problem revisiting the way in which we look to building - that said, I have to plead a little ignorance when it comes to knowing just how far the various servers have progressed.

Well, it's not that the toolset is harder, it's more meticulous and mundane. It takes much longer to make areas - unless we use templates.


For example, if you want to make a forest with a creek and a path in NWN1, you get the forest tile, plop down a creek from the palette, and then plop down a road from the palette and make sure there is a little variety by adding a few extra trees and bushes.

In NWN2, you first choose the type of vegetation for the forest, ie the grass floor. Then you place the underbrush, then you put down all the trees, then for the creek you need to painstakingly elevate the land accordingly so that you get banks and the proper depth. Then add water and texture it to the right color a forest creek might be. Then comes the road. You need to use the right color texture for the road and then place it in the forest with appropriate depth for use, and add some rocks and other foresty things. Then, if you want a hill ..... see where am getting at? It is a lot more time consuming.

If we made a few templates of what I have mentioned above, or a variety, ie forest with creek, forest without creek, etc, it would speed things up.

Right now, everyone is building separately, and building beautiful things, BTW, but everyone is re-inventing the wheel.

We ned a general build resource repository so I can steel Alered's cool forests and I can put up my stinky sewers, and for you, Mik, maybe someone might even make some drow interiors and if underground simulated drow cities tiles (who knows?). Peresonally, since I did the sewers, I think it is possible.

[indio]

I haven't seen any mention of YATT (the heightmap/texturemap plugin) in the discussions on these boards. No one else tried it? Or understand what it does? If you look at the High Moor image I posted on the NWN2 Screenshot thread you might be surprised to learn that that is about three minutes work; I haven't used any of the toolset terrain tools, all of the terrain and texturing is generated from imported images (1 x heightmap and 3 x fractal noise maps for the textures).

In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that I could design, generate and export seamless data for a whole server in about two hours. You would need to import the data into the toolset an area at a time, but it's much quicker than doing it by hand.

The only problem, of course, is you then have to add detail. Which is where the toolset becomes a black hole. People have been complimentary about the forest screenshots I posted, but that's nine days' work and I'm maybe two thirds done (and I didn't do the terrain, I'm just putting the trees on)... The reason we don't have many builders is because if you don't really want to do it the level of drudgery involved is impossibly high

I'm a YATT convert. My initial puritanical stance was that areas ought to be hand-crafted. After seeing what YATT could do, however, I'm not going back.

Your evaluation of exterior builds is spot on. YATT makes creating a brilliant foundation easy, but the texturing and populating of that area is a real labour of love.

I think Beta 1 really ought to be broad strokes from builders:
- YATT for the lay of the land
- Major object placement (non-decorative, functional objects only such as houses, caves, lakes etc)
- Basic texturing and grass
- Basic decoration (trees, placeables, vegetation)
- Build 3-5 interiors for major locales and link them up
- Build 3-5 NPCs for basic interaction/quests/services
- Lay down basic encounters

And that's a beta area, right there. The detailed work, the area decoration, the conversations, the ambience, the unique mobs, the custom costumes and items....these things can either be handled much later when the server is in beta, or be done by a new member to the build team when they join up.

But beta areas are not finished areas. NWN2's toolset is so deep in its capacity to finesse an area that there really is no end to finsihing an area. It's a trap to work towards finishing every area before moving on. Get the skeleton done and move on to the next area.

[ç i p h é r]

I saw YATT on the vault some time ago, but haven't used it. It seemed best suited for generating totally random maps as opposed to those specifically constrained by canon. Am I wrong? Should I RTFM? If it can take a contour map as an input and replicate that ...

But we're off topic.

[indio]

If it can take a contour map as an input and replicate that ...

But we're off topic.

It can do that.

[Mikayla]

Rick:

Well, it's not that the toolset is harder, it's more meticulous and mundane.

A distinction without a practical difference. The end result is that building is taking longer and fewer people are willing to participate.

Rick:

We ned a general build resource repository

That sounds fine to me.

Rick:

for you, Mik, maybe someone might even make some drow interiors and if underground simulated drow cities tiles (who knows?).

That would be lovely - I've seen the community created drow add-ons and they are very nice - but if this is a hint about me building, well, I am sorry to disappoint but having messed with the new toolset once, I am pretty sure I will not be building anything this time around. The first toolset was a nightmare for me - this one is ... well ... I seriously doubt I will be building anything.

[HEEGZ]

I'm willing to help build one server at a time if that is the route we end up going. I've just finished stockpiling maps and such for WD though and about to kick into full time building for it. Anyways, I'll be building for WD unless we collectively decide to do something different first. Good to see some honest discussion though. I'm a bit tired to say anything else so more later.

[Aelred]

Alrighty - I'm willing to join the WD build team too if the invite is still open. After all Halrin is still MIA (4 months now!) and it isn't like someone is gonna grab the MD server and build it over night. I just want to add as strongly as possible that whether or not he comes back, I still have my heart set on getting that server going in the future.

I am off from work today and tomorrow (wed & thurs) and building ALL day. Cipher...Rick...if I can sign on with you guys, please let me know asap and I will get building something right away...my first PC (Lathanderite bard) made a pilgrimage from the Dales to WD and stayed at the Spires of Morning while trying to get into New Olamns. I'd be very interested in the challenge of doing the Spires if it hasn't already been done - other than that, whatever/wherever you guys need just say the word. I'll download the WD source materials now.

[Mulu]

Rick:

Well, it's not that the toolset is harder, it's more meticulous and mundane.

A distinction without a practical difference. The end result is that building is taking longer and fewer people are willing to participate.

The toolset is harder. Heck *I* built mods in NWN1, and I'm an orcpaladin when it comes to computers. I can't even make a suit of armor using the NWN2 toolset.

But I'm off topic. For generic stuff, you could always use NWVault to host, and look at the prefabs already there for that matter.

[Rick7475]

Alrighty - I'm willing to join the WD build team too if the invite is still open. After all Halrin is still MIA (4 months now!) and it isn't like someone is gonna grab the MD server and build it over night. I just want to add as strongly as possible that whether or not he comes back, I still have my heart set on getting that server going in the future.

I am off from work today and tomorrow (wed & thurs) and building ALL day. Cipher...Rick...if I can sign on with you guys, please let me know asap and I will get building something right away...my first PC (Lathanderite bard) made a pilgrimage from the Dales to WD and stayed at the Spires of Morning while trying to get into New Olamns. I'd be very interested in the challenge of doing the Spires if it hasn't already been done - other than that, whatever/wherever you guys need just say the word. I'll download the WD source materials now.

am sure Cipher will have ya


I am also committed to MD in the long run, and when Halrin was there it was movin. But now, I'd like to see more than one server in beta, so I am committed to WD. I should have all the sewers (or for whch ever wards ) done soon. I think I have one ward done now.

[Teric neDhalir]

But beta areas are not finished areas. NWN2's toolset is so deep in its capacity to finesse an area that there really is no end to finsihing an area. It's a trap to work towards finishing every area before moving on. Get the skeleton done and move on to the next area.

Except every time you tweak a few things about and add one blade of grass or a placeable you're into everyone downloading a whole new .pwc file. Gah! Let's hope those automatic-download-of-mod-changes gizmos (Audolo?) work!

Well at least the OAS is finite. It ain't finished yet, but you can see where it should finish!

[darrenhfx]

Indio said:

The detailed work, the area decoration, the conversations, the ambience, the unique mobs, the custom costumes and items....these things can either be handled much later when the server is in beta, or be done by a new member to the build team when they join up.

But beta areas are not finished areas. NWN2's toolset is so deep in its capacity to finesse an area that there really is no end to finsihing an area. It's a trap to work towards finishing every area before moving on. Get the skeleton done and move on to the next area.

That's sage advice to keep a builder from getting bogged down with the level of detail we are potentially capable of providing. I'm guilty of not wanting to show what I've been doing until I get it just so. The artistry can come later, we need beta areas.