Possible balances to help out low level PCs

[AcadiusLost]

This comes out of discussions in the 003 forums, has also touched the Standards forum, though most of us (myself included) lack post access there, so I thought it made sense to start a discussion here. For those who don't want to wade through the "No Statics for Solos and a Rant" thread, the summation is that a significant cross-section of the playerbase would greatly appreciate a tweak or two to the ACR or pricing standards to aid lowlevel PC survival. Suggestions so far have included:

1. Special exception to pricing for CLW potions. Mid to high level PCs don't benefit as much from the 1d8+2 healing, but at 50 gp per potion, these are fairly prohibitively priced for most level one PCs in NWN2-ALFA (not to mention many of the level 2 and 3 ones). The logistics of the NWN2 UI also make their use in combat a bit challenging, meaning you may well spill them (by having a different default target) rather than drink them. I'd contend that 25 gp would be a more reasonable price, and could be easily accomplished by altering the blueprints (would take effect in all stores). My only concern would be more wealthy/higher level PCs down the line with 20+ CLW potions stacked up, though maybe that's an unwarranted concern, if higher-healing pots are still fully pricey.

2. Low levels get special healing rates (up to full) with rests, potentially under limited circumstances. I'm not as fond of this solution, as it's harder to rationalize IC- at a certain level, you loose the ability to bounce back quickly after injury? We've gone to lengths to simulate an IC PnP-style healing mechanic, and making special-case exceptions seems like a mess ingame- I'd rather see adjustments that can apply across the board that don't involve any "free full heals" that don't involve magic.

3. CON bonus to healing rate on resting. Since it's the high-HP fighter/tank type PCs who have it worst for natural healing after taking a lot of damage, this might be a good option to balance things back, and makes decent intuitive sense. The options I'd see here would be to make the natural healing 1+CON modifier / level / day (so the extra HP from CON multiply by level) or to apply the CON modifier only once (1/level +CON modifier)/day, which would make the change less relevent to 3rd and higher level PCs. Some example numbers:
___________________ One Rest ________ offline 20 RL hrs ______
current setup for a
Level 1 fighter, 14 CON: -- +1 HP -------------- +7 HP
Proposed change for a
Level 1 fighter, 14 CON: -- +3 HP --------------- +21 HP (fully healed)

CON added after level mult.
Level 3 fighter, 14 CON: -- +5 HP --------------- +23 HP
CON added before level mult.
Level 3 fighter, 14 CON: -- +9 HP --------------- +63 HP (fully healed)

4. Death system adjustments. Here we've had suggestions about slowing the bleeding rate and increasing chance of recovery, also decreasing bandaging/stabilization DCs. I'm less in favor of changing the mechanics of the bleeding/death system, as it's already gone through one round of adjustments to improve survivability which most ALFAns may not have been aware of. This works on two levels- first and foremost, we've added a damage limiter, which means no attack may bring a PC to lower than -6 HP. This is a huge boost over the instakill crit situation that is still present to this day in NWN1-ALFA. All PCs will have the chance to make at least a few rolls for stabilization or recovery, and there will always be at least some chance for allies to attempt first aid or healing. Secondly, we sped up the natural healing rates and checks while in negatives, meaning a better chance to stabilize and recover than you'd have in PnP, as well as giving resolution to a solo bleeding situation within a reasonable (~20 RL minutes or so) timespan. (Canon would be rolling some of those checks per game-day, which isn't really a realistic option for recovery). We've also got all healing potions useable on others, and disabled PCs are valid targets for healing potions even during combat. I think the balances we've made to this system serve their purpose well already. With regard to the DC of the heal check, many stores sell MW first aid kits (10 charges) which apply a +2 circumstance modifier to the DC15 Heal check for stabilizing a dying PC, and the check can be retried without penalty.
[edit: forgot to mention, we also have a system in place that stops mobs from finishing off downed PCs, which is another big advantage for survivability.]


Of the above, I'd recommend going with 1) the 25 gp CLW, and 3) CON bonus to resting, personally. Neither would be particularly burdensome on Tech (I'd be happy to do both), and I feel they'd help address systemic frustrations among the playerbase. I'm certainly interested to hear other ideas and feedback, and I'm not going to go changing these things just because I think they're a good idea- this is a community, and we ought to operate by agreement and consensus, not fiat.

[Mikayla]

Just a note from the AR/Player side of the house.

AL:

first and foremost, we've added a damage limiter, which means no attack may bring a PC to lower than -6 HP.

That right there is the single most genius addition to NWN2 ALFA I've seen as a player. That has improved survivability for PCs in a group DRAMATICALLY. Having fought my way through TSM for the last month or so, I've seen so many PCs that would otherwise be dead saved by that script, AND, it also allows for non-lethal CvC action - or lethal CvC action. Basically, in any CvC, the person who falls will not be dead right away - the other person can finish them off, or (try to) save them. In my case, this allowed me to have a "friendly" but still "serious" duel with a dwarf who thought he was a better axe-handler than I. Though there is no subdual system, we were able to have a real duel which did not end in death (after he fell, we stabilized him and healed him).

So, from the Player perspective, that was a GREAT addition - many kudos to who ever thought it up and added it.

[AcadiusLost]

Amusingly enough, we have ex-Haze players who were upset at the high mortality rate of the Exodus PW to thank for it, it a way. They brought it to my attention as a feature of the HCR that they thought would help make Exodus a more fair playing experience (Exodus uses the ACR for it's core ruleset). I made the coding changes after discussions here and there.

Back to the suggestions above though, this good catch from Magonushi (who doesn't have post access here).

<Magonushi> was reading your post in NWN2 team collective discussion
<Magonushi> I agree that 1 and 3 are probably the ones to consider going with
<Magonushi> my main concern with 3 though is PCs with a negative Con modifier
<Magonushi> You probably wouldn't want to drain HPs from an elf just for resting
<AcadiusLost|AFK> would be easy enough to only add positive modifier there
<AcadiusLost|AFK> do you have post access to collective to suggest it?
<Magonushi> yeah I figured it's an easy if,then catch
<Magonushi> also I think it should be Con added after level is considered
<Magonushi> I mean it would be great for my dwarf to regen almost all the damage he takes every night for his entire career
<Magonushi> but I don't think that's the most realistic situation

I'd forgotten about negative modifiers. I'd say we should only add positive ones, or at the very least, make the minimal healing rate 1 hp/day (if we did (1*level)+CON mod, a 2nd level elf wiz with 6 CON (-2) could still heal 1/day).

[JaydeMoon]

A note on MY experiences using CLW potions with higher level PCs:

Once you get to a point where you NEED to heal up some, CLWs just aren't fast enough.

Unless you take yourself OUT of the fight, you draw an AoO and lose your action that turn, so the enemy effectively gets a Full Attack Action and an AoO. I've found that generally you are getting hit for as much damage as you are healing, if not actually fighting a losing battle.

If you remove yourself from the fight while it's still going, sure you can gulp down several CLWs, but every round you're drinking is a round your buds are getting pounded. It behooves you to get back in the fray quickly.

If you are totally between battles... well... the funniest thing I see is folks slurping down potions to get themselves at max health when they are settling in for the night or otherwise about to log off. What ends up happening there is that they end up 'wasting' less gold on potions, not loading up on cheapies. So dropping the cost of CLWs is going to be a major boon for low level characters and less helpful for higher level PCs.

Don't know if standards will go for it...


Resting rates:

I like granting a single Con bonus to resting.

Also, what if you set resting gains at a minimum of 'as if lvl 3(4)'? Then combine the two.

So a level 1, 2, and 3 fighter with 14 con gets 5 HP. A level 4 fighter with 14 con gets 6 HP.

That's an additional boon for low level characters that phases out.



Wealth Gains:

Since ALFA uses a slower XP advancement curve than canon, the typical connections between encounter levels and wealth do not apply. Instead, the best connection that exists is between average wealth and XP, which tends to be consistent within four separate bands – levels 1-8, levels 9-12, levels 13-16, and levels 17 and above. As long as that consistent ratio is maintained, a simple relationship between XP and wealth will allow an easy way to aim for average wealth:

Wealth Value of Session = Average XP Awarded * Number of Party Members * Factor

Lower of Mean or Median Character Level between 1 – 8: Factor = 1.25 (see Table 4)
Lower of Mean or Median Character Level between 9 – 12: Factor = 2.5 (see Table 5)
Lower of Mean or Median Character Level between 13 – 16: Factor = 5.0 (see Table 6)
Lower of Mean or Median Character Level above 16: Factor = 10.0 (see Table 7)

We can apply this to creatures kills. DMs normally do not take creatures killed into account when determining wealth gains. By this table, characters between levels 1-8 should be earning ~ 1.25xXP in wealth. If there was a way to tie loot on creatures to the amount of XP earned from killing them, 5 gp for every 4 XP, that could be helpful. I killed about 25 XP worth of creatures last night. I got 0 gold.

This also means that coin earned from statics could and perhaps should, unless it is expressly stated elsewhere, be paying 1.25xXP in gold.

Maybe it's not completely realistic that all that gold is payed out for a simple exploration or scouting mission, but a lot of times our balances aren't necessarily about realism and more about... well.. balance.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[AcadiusLost]

This from Dorn, with a counterpoint:

just thought i'd add my 2c worth to this convo

a) ALFA is hardcore RP
If your a better than average chump (ie level 1 adventurer) dont go fighting a ghoul...or even several kobalds. These nsaty buggers have killed thousands of humans/elves /etc. That;s why they're monsters. Train. Go with better fighers and ifhgt with them (group = learn = exp), show you're training (=DM Exp), RP otherwise (=exp).
Many people get to level 2-3 without soling statics/spawns. Not saying those that do are PGers, but just if you solo spawn you WAY increase the risk

b) Statics are for RP
They're not there for an automatic powerup to level 2-3. They are there to allow you to explore a server, bond with other PCs, RP in general.

c) Most adenturers die
Probably

d) ALFA 1 vs ALFA2
I played on TLR and LW and other servers. Dying on statics was a regularity. After a wihle peeps realised this and it drove RP to achieve the static 'win'. Why should we make ALFA 2 easier than that adn hence lose the RP?

e) The SAVAGE frontier
This place is one of the most dangerous, lawless, unknown places in western faerun (says so in the books). It should NOT be easy .

f) there's quite a few characters (ie mine) who have lasted since lice + a few hours and are still alive and have not done the statics and have not had more than 1 DM session a aweek and are not level 5 and are still providing their players (ie me) with enjoyment.

ALFA Mission: '....hardcore roleplay...'

Personally, I'd say that the high mortality at the low levels due to statics is somewhat undesirable- my early ALFA experiences via NWN1-Shadowdale were of building up a serious IC reluctance to do most of the statics, due to the long list of allies and friends who died trying to complete them. At the time, Shadowdale had quite a few absurdly deadly ones which had innocuous setups (please retrieve my lost book = take on an army of undead, or missions that lead many into giant camps due to misleading directions). A good party of the RP with new players was spend warning them IC about dangers A,B,C,D,E,F etc. There was comraderie and good RP in that, but it was making the best of an unfortunate situation. I'd much rather have seen "fair warning" on deadly statics, so you didn't /have/ to get tipped off IC to know which ones were suprise deathtraps. Just thoughts based on my experience with them- certainly in that case, we had an HDM who consistently defended the bugs as intentional and IC, which happily isn't the case nowadays.

[dergon darkhelm]

Personally, I'd say that the high mortality at the low levels due to statics is somewhat undesirable- my early ALFA experiences via NWN1-Shadowdale were of building up a serious IC reluctance to do most of the statics, due to the long list of allies and friends who died trying to complete them. I'd much rather have seen "fair warning" on deadly statics, so you didn't /have/ to get tipped off IC to know which ones were suprise deathtraps.

My PC has spent a lot of time IC bashing the Marshall for being an idiot (or even worse secretly evil) for constantly sending adventurers off to die in the wilds.

I have absolutely no problems with the statics being deadly for a solo level 1....../every/ combat is potentially deadly for a solo level 1, but adding a nice piece of dialgoue such as "No one here goes into the hills alone who is not courting death. Assemble a group of men to your liking and ...... blah blah blah" would be appropriate.

Statics are for RP
They're not there for an automatic powerup to level 2-3. They are there to allow you to explore a server, bond with other PCs, RP in general.

I am definately in the "no free pass to lvl 3" camp. But I just play here and will leave the philosophical side of the debate as to whether PCs should jump through level 1 or just suck it up and wait.

If it is decided that level 1 should only take day then so be it. Make some noncombat fed-ex statics to get there.

Personally I think it is just fine expecting people to party up to do statics. That's the way it was on TLR (also my starting ALFA server) and it was fine.

"My car gets fourty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it!"

[dergon darkhelm]

Special exception to pricing for CLW potions.

It's OK.... but try to keep a balance so that divine casters are not marginalized or their pwoers deemed mundane. The ability to heal through magic should still be awe inspiring.

I suppose 25 gp is not too bad but don't drop it too much.

Low levels get special healing rates (up to full) with rests, potentially under limited circumstances

Don't like it. Stick to D&D rules

CON bonus to healing rate on resting.

Also don't like it. Once again the D&D rules I prefer.

Death system adjustments

Here I will deviate from my "stick to D&D" mantra with a rationale for the variation. Simply when the battle is flying online it can often take afew rounds to even realize who is down and how much, as opposed to tabletop where the round by round action allows for better spotting of the dead guy.

So I suppose this is OK.

In summary

1 --- Ambivalent
2--- Don't like
3 ---Don't Like
4 --- Like

[Brokenbone]

Very brief comment on JM's wealth point, which is a bit of a diversion from the main topic. We do not award $$ from kills, tied to say, expected XP or alternately, CR. Finding something of non-challenging CR for a guaranteed payout with no risk, is the problem in a 24/7 world full of spawns. Different around a tabletop where the DM knows darn well the party of 10ths isn't scheduled to run into two CR2 goblins carrying an EL3 treasure. I.e., there's no encounters (and associated rewards) that unfold without DM involvement.

...

Anyhow, as to the 4 points:

(1) Introduce herbs if you haven't already. Mostly found in NWN1's cmk_herbs script. Yes they often require more than 1 heal rank, but seldom more than two. See cmk_herbs. There are PLENTY of cheap and effective herbal remedies , some with slight tactical disadvantages, for use.

Example 1: dwale at 28gp in NWN1, does 1d3+2 recovery instantly. Give me two of those over one CLW any day of the week for a guaranteed minimum payout.
Example 2: poppy at 17gp in NWN1, does 1d4 recovery, BUT you get a minor AB penalty, possibly AC penalty for a short bit (a turn or two) as well, to simulate being all doped up, I guess. Cheap and okay if you are pretty sure you've got at least a few minutes for your PC to "shake off the dizzies."
Example 3: some herbs, comfrey I think is one, does something like 1d3 hp immediate recovery, another 1d2 or so a minute or two later. Get a message like *the comfrey continues to work* or something. Again, cheapies, less than a CLW.

(2) Don't like unless the "limited circumstances" are 2x recovery rate if under the care of a healer (someone who uses a heal kit correctly, or MAYBE paying an NPC who'll apply that effect to you!), or putting oneself to bed for 24hrs. The NPC thing is something I always wanted to see in NWN1, and never did. I.e., a non-divine healer willing to kiss your boo boos for 5gp or something... something to cover the cost of their using a healer's kit and their extensive training. Come to think I guess that'd be easily scripted, probably just "if you pick this 5gp dialogue option, apply an INT to the PC that gets noted for next rest."

(3) Don't like. CON is already a highly sought after Ability score, why place additional emphasis on it? Are we short on dwarves all of a sudden and need an ALFA Thunder Blessing?

(4) Sounds okay, but I've never liked the toggle on AI to not go for the kill... animals and monsters often want to eat tender adventurers. However, this desire should not be so strong as to cause them to ignore an ongoing combat (i.e., get pounded on while finishing off someone downed).

Maybe keep I guess the onspawn part of the AI as "not going for the kill", but have a separate onperception that eventually finishes off someone they perceive sitting there at negatives. Perhaps applying an INT to "whoever they see but don't yet bother with", time passes, the INT increments by +1, and eventually when that's happened 10 times, they opt to finish you off. I am not great with AI scripts, but I remember one of the more basic tutorials I ever saw was a "goblin and chicken demo", where the goblin got progressively hungrier every heartbeat or so, and eventually once ten or twenty cycles had passed, the goblin would flip out and try to eat (i.e., attack) the chicken. Again, that's an example that I think used a function to set a temp enemy between two normally neutral-to-each-other factions, but there'd be other ways to simulate it, my best from-the-hip guess is from onperception, only knowing how NWN1 would work.

Anyhow, net, some of the death tweaks sound good, some, I've got a reaction against, mostly when leading to the absurd result of critters milling around with an unconscious PC in their midst. Eat him, capture him, cut his throat, whatever... come to think, loot him as well if it floats your NPC boat. But don't just walk off and despawn or something, that's silly.

[indio]

Just want to acknowledge Runestaff who, through an excellent PM, crystallised many of the ideas that have helped develop these concepts. Such good work AL, btw. It's a real privelege to be able to work with someone of your skill and drive.

[JaydeMoon]

Very brief comment on JM's wealth point, which is a bit of a diversion from the main topic. We do not award $$ from kills, tied to say, expected XP or alternately, CR. Finding something of non-challenging CR for a guaranteed payout with no risk, is the problem in a 24/7 world full of spawns. Different around a tabletop where the DM knows darn well the party of 10ths isn't scheduled to run into two CR2 goblins carrying an EL3 treasure. I.e., there's no encounters (and associated rewards) that unfold without DM involvement.

Wealth gains are pertinant in that you need wealth (gold) to buy potions, or any other thing. Survivability is increased if PCs are getting proper wealth distribution. Introducing a proper amount of wealth at EVERY level of play should be among our priorities.

We do not award $$ from kills based on expected XP or CR? Well, then what do we base $$ from kills off of? Some arbitrary number we pull out of our rear end? Or is that yet to be addressed in standards?

Are you saying that if PC A somehow manages to survive over a month slaying goblins, kobolds, and orcs to the tune of 1000 XP, that he should NOT have earned 1250 GP as well, whereas the player who got DM attention for every single point of XP should?

What is the reason for that?

We spent a lot of time putting together wealth standards that suggest a base wealth reward per XP in order to align players with wealth per level tables. On a philosophical level, why would we exclude spawns from that?

Technically, maybe we don't have the means to make the spawns drop 1.25 GP per XP earned slaying them and maybe you're saying (by expected XP / CR) that we don't want kobolds as a matter of course to drop 4 or 5 GP a piece when higher level PCs can slaughter them at no risk and earn no XP.

My suggestion is to tie the loot drop to actual XP earned (if that is possible), not to place a static amount of loot on every instance of a given creature.

If that can't be done, then my suggestion is not viable, but to say we shouldn't be granting wealth based on XP earned because you got this XP from a different place than that XP sounds very off.

[Brokenbone]

I am not sure what the math is in any "loot from monsters" scripts.

For as long as I've been aware of any standards though, there's definitely been an aversion to CR style treasure tables, since static spawns are pretty much always in the same spot, same-ish strength (rare exception of dynamic spawns that take note of the highest PC's level), and will spawn whether a PC1 or PC15 walks into their turf. More a standards discussion (probably see terms like infinispawn deep in the forum). The idea of killing enough stuff that you can afford to heal and kill more stuff ad infinitum, well, it's not sane behavior in an RP-heavy context. "I bet the more goblins I kill, the more I can afford to kill, guaranteed!"

Separate discussion though, there are probably more good ideas based on / related to the 4 mentioned though, to keep going in this thread.

***

Anyhow I forgot a 5th idea, the one mentioned in Standards though it feels more like a brainstorming type of thing. Charitable healer NPCs. Have a little dialogue, maybe if you talk to them politely enough, they bandage you for accelerated healing, let you sleep in their facilities (FLOPHOUSE!) for 24hrs, or dole out a CLW. Possibly tied to some OOC recognition you're a lowbie or broke, i.e., a level or net worth check. Net worth check could I suppose be evaded by dropping your goodies on the ground, talking naked to an NPC who takes pity on you, but that'd be discouraged, ha ha. Hard to avoid the level check though, I guess.

Anyhow, such charitable NPCs might be anyplace. Urban centres, temples, remote druid circles, strange outcasts, witch's hut in the woods, whatever. Cheap faction healers might be a similar topic (priest of Mask willing to heal thieves' guild members for cheap? Tyrran willing to heal members of the constabulary? whatever). Some might require a little relationship building in exchange for the boon, maybe it's doing a static, maybe it's saying sweet nothings in their ear (Diplomacy?), maybe it's one of those horrible OOC deity checks ("Hello, boy you look like a Waukeenar to me, let's be friends!"), I'm sure there's no end of creative options.

[Veilan]

What are the facts?

Of how many created PCs, how many died, on what level, and under what circumstances?

Everyone has their personal observation, mine is that NWN 2 on TSM is a lot easier to survive than TSM in NWN 1 was, where I started to play. More and more highly rewarding statics, people to help you do them, cheap and accessible healing, short perception range on monsters, ample warning about the dangers, offline healing, you can rest anywhere, you have a very hard time managing to die if a party mate survives an encounter due to the -6 hit cap, etc..

I'm reluctant to buy into "it's too tough" at this point, and would like some hard data first, as qualitative reports with this topic are highly dependant on personal opinion - after all, some people do believe they must be at least level 3 "to have fun" and consider everything before an onerous obstactle, where the mere fact of level 1 and 2 existing is too tough for them.

[Brokenbone]

We talked about starting with more than 1xp prior to now, in possible "how to manage ECL" discussions. Depending on how high the highest ECL race is, that may determine what a non-ECL starter looks like.

Anyhow, if all of a sudden all the non-ECL races started with enough XP to be 3rd (and ECL races started with that same XP, which would purchase less levels), that might be a completely different way to go about the concern of survivability. I.e., newly minted human, bang, 3 levels. However, try not to get near anything that'll dole out an axe crit, you'll probably still die.

...

Sixth survivability idea: be very alert to crit potentials, when deciding what weapons you arm humanoids and whatnot with. Check the SRD for inspiration first, but secondly, consider weapons with less chance of dealing out a crit. Example: why have a kobold archer (with a x3 shortbow) when you could try a slinger? Why have an orc with a greataxe when you could try a morningstar?

Sure, still want to keep some hazards, but I'd rather see a gaggle of slingers than a gaggle of archers in a low-level event, the more of anything there is, the greater the chance one of them will get lucky. There's a reason PCs in Bioware HATE skeleton warriors with greatswords, I'd rather face, at once, three of them with daggers if I could!

[dergon darkhelm]

I personally would like to look at "survivability in party" as a goal. That's why I like the "no wounds that bring to >-6 hp" idea. It allows nearby party memebrs to help out and stabilize.



I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon (not /the/ curmudgeon, but /a/ curmudgeon) but ...


Increasing survival rates for solo PCs is counterproductive, imho. If we decide that that ALFA is currently too challenging (I have not personally accepted this) then let us, if possible, try to come with solutions that improve survivability in party play but continue to make soloing the deadly and risky proposition it should be.

[Veilan]

I think we've been quite aware of instant-death critical potential, arming mobs with x2 weapons rather than x3 weapons most of the time. Sure the average damage is about the same, but you can plan a bit better and won't usually get insta floored.

I have to say the survivability in a party seems superb, at least vastly improved over NWN 1, as it's all but impossible to get insta morgued (which is why I suggested to alter death magic from instant morgue to 0 and bleeding, I'd say -6 now). We fought and killed a hill giant with power attack the other day, and not a single PC died.

My observation is that most deaths stem from people biting off more than they can chew, or having bad luck, usually alone. I'm not sure we need to encourage that behaviour by making it more survivable - and I still would prefer hard data on whether my assumption is right, or whether throngs of level 1 and 2 parties really get wiped out in unfair fashions.

I'm particularly un-fond of making healing even cheaper, as it firstly benefits those ahead of the curve more than lower levels, and secondly I'm opposed to the notion that you are supposed to earn full healing and keep going as a perpetuum mobile by overcoming challenges to be ready to take on the next. Smart ressource planning adds depth to the game.