Speeds and armor

[SwordSaintMusashi]

While it is well known I am always for making things closer to pen and paper, I don't feel this would be a good use of people's times in adding things to the ALFA experience.

If we were to implement movement speed penalties for medium and heavy armor, I would also want it to be a universal change - adjust the speeds for every race. Small races would have their movement reduced by 10%.

Materials such as Mithril would have to reduce the movement speed penalty (Heavy Mithril would be 5% reduction, Medium Mithril would have no reduction).

If this all happened (Which seems like ALOT of effort to be placed elsewhere), then I would also like to see Dash reimplemented as a way to counter the movement speed reduction, as that 5% becomes a nice bonus.

Just my two cents.

[Veilan]

While it is well known I am always for making things closer to pen and paper, I don't feel this would be a good use of people's times in adding things to the ALFA experience.

Or in short: SSM uses heavy armour!

[Happycrow]

Gah. Lost my post.

Long story short -- seen armor move reductions done elsewhere very successfully. Never seen ANYONE try to actually fix pc-vs-everything-else move speeds. Either because of the work, or the players shrieking in protest at the idea that their little fellows can't ACTUALLY outrun a wolf, bear, giant, or wyvern...

[Electryc]

Does this fall in the realm of chain-mail bikinis getting a speed bonus?

[SwordSaintMusashi]

While it is well known I am always for making things closer to pen and paper, I don't feel this would be a good use of people's times in adding things to the ALFA experience.

Or in short: SSM uses heavy armour!

Okay, I don't think that was necessary.

Regardless, I'd happily take a -10% to speed for wearing heavy armor if everything matched up.

My apologies for posting my thoughts in a brain-storming thread.

[Veilan]

That was just ribbing. Thought it was clear because I also don't think speed modifiers are where we want to try to introduce some balance - as pointed out, it's very complex, and might have all kinds of consequences we end up not being so happy with in the end.

So, my apologies if you felt offended.

The same speed for everyone, roughly, is a pretty convenient thing, it might not be 100% realistic nor 100% balanced, but it's going to be a hassle to come forward with a good proposal that's worth the effort. The CvC considerations alone would be a headache, after all.

However, light armour classes are massively shafted, and giving them a boon somewhere would seem in order.

[Brokenbone]

Gah. Lost my post.

Long story short -- seen armor move reductions done elsewhere very successfully. Never seen ANYONE try to actually fix pc-vs-everything-else move speeds. Either because of the work, or the players shrieking in protest at the idea that their little fellows can't ACTUALLY outrun a wolf, bear, giant, or wyvern...

PnP
Wolf: speed 50ft.
Bear (black, brown, polar, dire): speed 40 ft.
Giant: well, lots have 40ft or 50ft speeds, often the stats show slower stats if armored.
Wyvern: speed 20ft if stupid enough to be on the ground, 60ft flying.

Yeah, a lot of those are faster than a 30ft move tall guy. Or a 40ft move barb tall guy. Ah well, massive retooling of the whole wide world would be kinda nuts.

[NickD]

Materials such as Mithril would have to reduce the movement speed penalty (Heavy Mithril would be 5% reduction, Medium Mithril would have no reduction).

Just as an aside, Mithril is reclassified as 1 armour lighter, i.e., heavy mithral is medium armour and medium mithral is light armour.

[t-ice]

Starting to get a bit off of the literal topic, but if the purpose is tilt the balance more in favor of light versus heavy armors, there's plenty of other, simpler, options than the (correct as per PnP) movement speed.

From my experience in DMing the low-level low-magic world, the natural drift is to have as enemies those brutes swinging/throwing/shooting the implements that hurt. Low-magic, low-level. Per DnD rules, that's what heavy armor is effective against. That hulking plate suddenly becomes much less uber when presented against spells and touch attacks. Hit those meat and metal mountains to the will and reflex saves.

That said, it's certainly more important to have story-wise interesting, and setting immersive, enemies, than mechanics-wise interesting battles. At least where I stand. And also NWN2 doesn't seem to allow for a creature with a melee touch attack (e.g. a shadow, which I tried at Amn for the very purpose of something that armor wouldn't thwart, but no). But that's a thought on how to make those plates less uber without any tweaking of rules.

I would not be opposed to a small penalty to heavy armors, to off-set for the lack of the PnP speed penalty. Doubly so for barbs, who are not penalized at all for heavy vs. medium armor, counter to PnP. Perhaps something like -1 to physical damage output, to hit or reflex, or something. But I don't really see such tweaks as much benefit as comes to time invested. If such would be included to alfa core haks, however, I could see them readily adopted over at Amn.

[Rotku]

Does this fall in the realm of chain-mail bikinis getting a speed bonus?

It's the full-plate bikinis that deserve a speed bonus.

[Veilan]

We'd already be taking away a lot off urgency in this consideration if uncanny dodge were fixed. I can see that being a real issue... rogues dying to hits that shouldn't have connected are bound to be a headache, not to mention what happens if you CvC someone with the ability, and so on.

I do like your idea about -1 to hit to heavy armours, though, a bit like a tower shield. It's still massively beneficial to wear heavy armour, especially when faced with multiple enemies, but it's at least a token gesture.

Also, full-plate bikinis are an additional effective plus of +1. Yes, we have a rule for it - Standards is a service industry, and there was demand .

Cheers,

[Brokenbone]

Come to think though after all this, we do live with Encumbrance, right?

* None/Light- The character can run and walk at full speed.
* Normal-The character cannot run, but can walk at full speed.
* Heavy-The character cannot run, the character walks at 50% normal speed.

What if wearing maybe even JUST heavy armor applied "Normal" encumbrance? The next category up would be just punitive even by PnP standards.

You can still walk around with your party, thereby not destroying "grouping convenience", but you can't really run from danger too well. The fact you're walking as fast as everyone else is already a bonus (not 2/3 move or 1/2 move for many shorties), most critters aren't tooled anywhere near as fast as they should be. If you feel you need to play a skirmisher who runs around everywhere in melee helping friends, wear a decent medium armor, and suffer no movement restrictions.

An idea as all. Getting encumbered is a choice, so is sporting heavy armor.

[Veilan]

Creative take, BB. Seems to sidestep most of the problems by not messing with movement speeds, while giving a clear change, and might even make some more in-game party combat training necessary.

I like the idea.

[Happycrow]

Do we want guys in heavy armor to not be able to do even a short-distance charge?

T-Ice: ranged touch works fine. You can always have goblin warlocks, for instance. I've seen that done on a couple of PWs, and let me tell ya, it wakes people up.

[Brokenbone]

Do we want guys in heavy armor to not be able to do even a short-distance charge?

T-Ice: ranged touch works fine. You can always have goblin warlocks, for instance. I've seen that done on a couple of PWs, and let me tell ya, it wakes people up.

NWN1 we briefly had a "charge" fake-feat which was on everyone's character sheet, accessible via radial or drag it to a quickslot. Did a half decent approximation of attack and AC adjustments, plus a bit of speed, in whatever direction you were facing (I think you had to place your targeting reticle on what you were charging at). It was also sorta integrated with the riding system and use of lances (extra damage if you're charging). Zelknolf was probably the only person who could rhyme off everything it did. Portability completely unknown. It did though seem to need a target, something you'd care to kill at the other end, as opposed to charging towards an exit or something.

Kludgey workarounds always negotiable!