Crafting with Special Materials

[mogonk]

By RAW, using a special material such as mithral or adamantine to make an item increases its value. Because the time it takes to complete an item is based on the item's value, this increases the craft time...dramatically. In ALFA's timescale, the result is pretty ridiculous.

For example, a crafter with a +10 bonus who takes a 10 on all rolls can finish a masterwork shortsword in 8 RL days. The value is 320, he makes about 40gp of progress each day. The exact same crafter, making an adamantine shortsword with a value of 3,020 takes 76 RL days, during which time he cannot adventure, or even travel.

Taking a week out from playing a game just to make one item is one thing. It's a sacrifice, but a justifiable one. Taking two and a half months? That's unreasonable. It makes sense in PnP, where the DM can just roll the clock forward, but in ALFA's format it simply makes crafting high value items unfeasible.

What could we do to make crafting make more sense?

[Blindhamsterman]

one: Don't take 10, at least in the past, It wasn't being allowed, and even if you do, you're effectively slowing yourself down in the crafting process, so whats the point?

two: You should arguably have MUCH more than +10 to Craft when working with adamantine, at level 7 you would have +10 if maximum ranks without taking into account MW crafting tools or your intelligence score.. Adamantine really shouldn't be available to low level characters, making it a non issue.

three: Increase your DC by 10, as per RAW you may do this, and the result is it speeds up the process (also Adamantine has a higher DC to work with anyway, so will be much quicker to work with than you think)

four: items will often have to be tooled up anyway, so it'll take longer than a couple of days before you see it anyway.

FYI it too my level 5 PC 3 RL days to make a MW Silver Rapier (which is even higher value than your masterwork shortsword, meaning the shortsword should take less time)

[mogonk]

First of all, not that it has anything to do with the main point here, but you're incorrect about adamantine increasing the DC, unless that's an ALFA house rule. Nothing in RAW about that. Not a major issue either way, just thought I'd point it out. More substantively:

1. Taking 10 is allowed by PnP, and at least three DMs that I know of allow it. It is also more effective than rolling. If you don't believe me, just run some calculations. On average, the chance to make more progress doesn't come close to outweighing the chance to make no progress. Any item is made faster by taking 10 than rolling, except in cases where one cannot fail the roll, in which case rolling has a marginal advantage. So if your craft check is at least +19, then yes, rolling is better....but not much better. Otherwise, its far worse. It is more effective to simply increase the DC and continue taking 10.

I can go into more detail on that point if you like, but if you run the numbers you'll see what I'm talking about.

2. Ok, let's say you you were a dwarven smith who trained his whole life to use adamantine and was level 10. Skill focus craft, +2 racial, +2 Int, max ranks. Craft bonus of +20. The fastest way to do it is to take 10 and increase the DC to 30, giving you a daily progress of 90gp. Making an adamantine shortsword will take you 34 RL days.

See what I'm saying? What 10th lvl character would invest that kind of time to save a measly 2k? A character built to do nothing but make swords would still refuse to actually make a sword in ALFA. That's how bent the system is. It works fine for small items, but it does not work at all for more valuable ones.

How about the same smith at lvl 20, trying to make a suit of adamantine plate? His craft check is now +30, and he has purchased a "Hammer of Smithing" which gives him a mammoth +10 to his craft checks. He can take a 10 to get a result of 50, and so increases the DC to 50, giving him a daily progress of 250gp. The suit is worth 16,500. It will take a lvl 20 character with a net worth of 1,000,000 gp sixty six days IRL to make a suit of armor worth sixteen thousand. That is assuming he spends 10,000 on highly magical crafting gear, otherwise it will take him more than one hundred days.

That's insane.

[Blindhamsterman]

also, take into account you may still RP during the time you craft, simply no running about the server slaying monsters, also again take into account that many players that like to craft, also enjoy RPing their crafting, yes it take a long time, but the benefit is it just cost you a fraction of the coin to make the armour, weapon or whatever that it usually would.

The system does indeed mean you'll take a long time doing it, but nobody said you have to spend time every day on it. The majority of players can go adventuring once or twice a week, the other 5 days a week, they log in and RP for half hour the crafting of their armour, weapon or whatever.

Really not seeing the major issue here (as we've had players that do a lot of crafting for quite some time)

[mogonk]

Really not seeing the major issue here (as we've had players that do a lot of crafting for quite some time)

I would question what it is they are crafting. I want to be clear, the crafting system works fine for regular and masterwork weapons. Want to make a MW weapon at low lvl? Spend a week on it. Mid level? Spend a few days. That's great.

My point is that the equations produce really strange results if you try to use large values within them. This has been commented on in PnP by a lot of people, just look on ENWorld or the WoTC forums. In PnP, however, all you need is a DM willing to speed up time and have 3 months elapse in a session. That solution does not work in ALFA, with the result that people limit their crafting to low value items. Meanwhile, a wizard with appropriate feats can crank out an item worth 10k in 10 days.

The balancing factor is supposed to be the xp expenditure. But that's not how it works out. In ALFA, the mundane craftsman gives up far more xp over the course of months without adventuring in order to make a similarly valued item.

If, for some reasons, it's considered desirable that it be far easier to make magic items than to make mundane armor and weapons out of special materials, then the system is accomplishing its goal. I don't know why we want to do that, but there it is.

[Blindhamsterman]

mundane craftsman gives up far more xp over the course of months without adventuring in order to make a similarly valued item.

how so?

when this:

but nobody said you have to spend time every day on it. The majority of players can go adventuring once or twice a week, the other 5 days a week, they log in and RP for half hour the crafting of their armour, weapon or whatever.

is the case?

Do your crafting on days when you aren't planning to adventure anyway, no rule against it, and you ensure you don't miss out on the fun events when they happen.

[mogonk]

Do your crafting on days when you aren't planning to adventure anyway, no rule against it, and you ensure you don't miss out on the fun events when they happen.

In which case it takes twice as long, and we have people taking several months to make items. Months. Again, the question becomes ""Why would a character capable of making such an item spend that length of time as opposed to simply buying it?"

It's a fairly straightforward instance of a PnP system being applied within a world that has a feature PnP rules were not designed for: A fixed rate at which time elapses.

Seems problematic to me (seems ridiculous to me), as it makes craft skills pretty much useless past the very low levels, but...if people don't have a problem with its current implementation, I guess that's fine.

[danielmn]

2. Ok, let's say you you were a dwarven smith who trained his whole life to use adamantine and was level 10. Skill focus craft, +2 racial, +2 Int, max ranks. Craft bonus of +20. The fastest way to do it is to take 10 and increase the DC to 30, giving you a daily progress of 90gp. Making an adamantine shortsword will take you 34 RL days.

Replace that special material with another. Adamantine doesn't grow on trees (though it does fall from the sky) and is extremely rare except for the great rift area, so unless one is playing a gold dwarf from that specific area, the example is a bit off. Mithril is a bit more common, but still rare enough to warrent a background from a region where mithril might occur naturally or a background from a major tradehub where the material might be found with little problem.

""Why would a character capable of making such an item spend that length of time as opposed to simply buying it?"

Lack of NPC's with the knowledge to work those special materials. I'm sure every PGer and their mother would prefer every single armour and weapon smith to have the knowledge to craft any and all special materials....but that kind of logic makes me sick to my stomach. They're not refered to as "special materials" just because they have inherent benefits and because they are a rareity in and of themselves, but also because there aren't that many smiths within Faerun itself dedicated to the working of these materials. Now that of coarse depends on race and other factors, as elves/dwarves ect. have a longer lifespan to learn the forging of special materials, but on the whole special materials in my eyes aren't something every smith and his mother know how to work with, making those infrequent items that much more prized. If I started seeing mithril blah blah and adamantine blah blah and ironwood blah blah show up for sale in stores everywhere, I'd be a little disheartened.

Having a dedicated PC crafter, I can say that my PC only knows how to work with 1 special material, which he rped learning IG from an NPC that already knew how to forge from the special material. Because he has X ranks devoted to the skill doesn't necessarily mean my PC knows how to craft every single special material out there. If a PC had requested armour made of adamanine, my PC would have laughed. If the PC actually HAD the adamantine to work, my PC would still probably laugh, but would begin querying the region's known smiths to see if any smith within the region were capable of such.

[mogonk]

Lack of NPC's with the knowledge to work those special materials. I'm sure every PGer and their mother would prefer every single armour and weapon smith to have the knowledge to craft any and all special materials....but that kind of logic makes me sick to my stomach.

Ok...but that sickening kind of logic is actually used by the PnP system that we're basing all of this on. By RAW, any PC who can craft a masterwork sword can make a masterwork sword out of adamantine, or mithral, or darksteel, or dragonfang. Metal is metal, it requires no special knowledge. That's the system.

ALFA has a house rule (which is unevenly enforced, btw, there are some DMs that don't use this rule) that special materials require special crafting techniques. I don't have a problem with that, but it's worth recognizing that it creates yet another limitation on crafters within a system that is already stacked against them.

If we're willing to deviate from PnP in one regard (requiring special training), I fail to see why adherence to the rule about factoring special materials into cost for the purpose of calculating craft time is so important. Sure, darksteel might take longer to forge. Does it take 6 times longer than a masterwork steel weapon? Does adamantine take 11 times longer?

I'm not saying we should make these materials more available at all. I'm saying that availability and specialized knowledge requirements are better limits to use than massive time commitment. Having to go on a quest to find ore or learn crafting techniques is fun. It creates objectives and fosters a sense of achievement. It enhances the player experience. Having to wait months IRL and abstain from going out and doing things does not. On the contrary, it limits one's experience as a player.

Requiring crafters who have the special knowledge required to work with a material to commit XP to its creation as if the material were a magical enhancement would be substantially preferable to what we're doing now. That's just one option, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

[Blindhamsterman]

crafting on ALFA is for the most part an RP thing, it takes time, which is fine, as a craftsman you're working on a masterpiece or whatever, the joy of being a crafter is gettinng your item in game, all that time you spent pays off as you're result is a custom item with a cool description and appearance (depending on the time you spent to actually make it)

Yes it can be used to give you access to more powerful gear, but the issue arrises in that if you made certain items you could end up way past the wealth guidlines, which are there for a reason. Few players craft anyway, because it requires a patron DM to even be a plausable option in the first place.

NPCs don't sell those special material items, period. So if you want one, you make it (assuming you can find the material) and take the time on it, I see no issue there, and have done it myself (not with adamantine, nor do i have a desire to do it with adamantine))

[Blindhamsterman]

think of it, kind of like EVE onlines system, where getting anywhere great requires a lot of time and effort, it works and only detracts if you are just doing it for the gains and not for the fun of doing it in the first place...

[mogonk]

think of it, kind of like EVE onlines system, where getting anywhere great requires a lot of time and effort

Absolutely. I'm simply saying that "time" should be measured in days, not months, and that "effort" should consist of actively pursuing the materials and knowledge required to craft items rather than simply logging in the required half hour per day over and over and over and over and...

If you're doing THAT for the fun of it, we have different ideas of fun. And the reason most players don't craft, I suspect, is not that they can't get a DM to help (I managed to do that pretty easily), but that they would rather play the game.

I like crafting, I've played dedicated crafters in several PnP games. But if a PnP DM were to say to me "Oh, you want to make that item? Cool, skip the next 8 sessions, I'll see you in December", that would be a deal breaker. It shouldn't be a choice between playing and crafting...certainly not on the scale we're talking about here.

[Blindhamsterman]

as Danielmn pointed out, any material other than Adamantine takes considerably less time to forge with, and Adamantine SHOULD be rare (even by standards I believe this is the case as you'd need to be pretty high level to be allowed an item so valuable)
ergo, Adamantine is likely a poor example.

spending a couple of weeks on mithril armour or a few days on cold iron swords doesn't seem so bad, you add maybe a week total craft time to an item to be able to go adventure when you actually have an event to go along to.

*minor disclaimer, it may be that my view is thus because I am involved in DM events extremely rarely, so the majority of my play is simple RP anyway, which you are allowed to do if you're crafting.

[JaydeMoon]

If you want to craft something and we determine it takes X days, then it will be ready on the Xth day after the process started. I'm not interested in calculating time adventuring vs time at the forge. So adventure away while you build that adamantine full plate, gonna finish just as fast as the smith anchored to his forge.

Time is such an abstraction in ALFA.

[JaydeMoon]

That said, I'd be delighted to hear what sensible solutions you may have come to.