Surprise Spawns

[Mirabai]

Been kicking this idea around for a while, now that it's been brought up again i'm thinking of it more seriously, would like to get general input.

When I don't otherwise have time to DM, I'm thinking of setting up various "surprises" around the server and leaving them there for people to find if they are out exploring. An example would be a bandit encampment complete with loot chest. Would be awesome to set things up so that you could resolve things in some way other than just killing (IE diplomacy checks, etc) but as far as I know there is no way to script "on the fly" so this will have to do.

NOTE: these encounters will vary in terms of the challenge rating....some will be doable by low level groups, some will only be doable by higher levels. In other words, you might die. The first time someone comes to me crying about how the bandits killed them will mean I never do this again. So consider this carefully before you place your vote.

[Audark]

I would hope that the threshold for ceasing an activity that I expect many will enjoy would be more than one lone person complaining. As we see one lone person complain about nearly everything on a daily basis.

I would hope someone complaining would simply be told 'life's tough kid, get a helmet' and we carry on, but I do understand you don't want added flak, I can see it from that angle

[Blindhamsterman]

Voted yes, the idea would really add a lot to every server I think.

[Mick]

I could not be more in favor of this. If it goes into effect, a broad (or narrow, for that matter) warning should be issued, perhaps in the form of a post in the rumor thread (or a faction thread somewhere even.) Anything that happens after that (e.g.-TPK of a group not up to the challenge) is on the players involved.

Thanks for even considering this.

[mogonk]

Seems to me the primary beneficiary of this would be high level players. With a wide range of CRs in these encounters, and no way to accurately predict one's ability to handle them, most lowbies will simply avoid them...or die. Even if a lot of them could be handled by low lvl characters, the risk of hitting one that you can't handle will be enough to deter most people.

Since high level characters already have a lot more freedom (lowbies are frequently the ones stuck doing the tavern RP thing in the absence of DMs), I question the benefit of what you're proposing.

Not saying it's necessarily a bad idea. I haven't voted one way or another. I'm just interested to hear your thoughts on the inherently uneven extent to which characters at different level ranges could take advantage of what you're describing, and how it might be handled to offset that.

[Blindhamsterman]

The easiest way to handle your issues mogonk, would be through the use of the rumour thread, i.e. 'bandits of some skill have been giving the militia patrols trouble of late near location x' which implies somewhat high level

whereas 'a small group of bandits have been harrassing lone travellers near location x' which implies lower level challange.

It's also worth noting, there is a lot of static content available to lower levels, which by the time players reach 'high levels' has already been done, leaving the high levels as likely to sit about a tavern as the low levels (through lack of things to do).

[NESchampion]

I'm in favor of this, and trust the DMs are more than capable of logically placing appropriate CR encounters in areas. Will it probably result in some deaths? Sure, even normal spawns do that. The point is to make things more dynamic and less "oh yeah this cave its full of lizards for the 100th time across three characters I've played" without requiring a ton of spawn rebuilding done on the module all the time.

[Killthorne]

Yes!

~Killy~

[Galadorn]

I can only see myself benefitting from this kind of thing in the future, but at the same time, please no do not do it. It is also very realistic, so this says yes from deep in my soul, but please no do not do it. Not only will what mogonk said end up being true, the high levels will most certainly just get more and even more stuffz, and more and more low levels will die. Continuing a cycle of the big and rich always getting bigger and richer, and it becoming that much more increasingly dangerous for low levels.

And it's not even low levels - i hear stories that level 4 and level 5 PCs are dying when traveling or exploring. Considering the slow advancement I am seeing from lvl 1 to level X... the same poor sods who are not level X+++ will just continue to die even more and thus create new level 1s...

Last point: It is not required that anyone read these boards to play ALFA. So rumor mill warnings, even if vague, will not benefit newer players the most. All of the players are equally important I think, wether they write poems all day for the Library or never ever login to this website... this proposal will for that reason discourage new players even more by increasing the new players' low level PCs chances of dying even more than now.

*hug*

[mogonk]

The point is to make things more dynamic and less "oh yeah this cave its full of lizards for the 100th time across three characters I've played" without requiring a ton of spawn rebuilding done on the module all the time.

I would question why all three of those PCs were so obsessed with exterminating lizards and/or spelunking that they kept on going into those caves.

I don't find any of the proposals for making this accessible reassuring. Depending on an interpretation of a DMs wording when he/she posts a rumor as a method of evaluating an encounter's CR is just not an effective mechanism. If a lvl 2 interprets a rumor about a "handful of lightly armed bandits harassing small groups" as something that he and 3 equal level friends can handle and walks into a CR 4 encounter, people will die. If a group of lvl 6's walk into a CR 8 encounter, the odds they will escape unscathed are much greater. Differences in PC level and encounter CR are exponentially more important at lower lvls. Anybody who has DMed knows how tricky encounter balance is with low lvl PCs.

As Galadorn points out, the idea that forum participation should be required to effectively play the game is questionable. New (and therefore low-lvl) players are the least likely to benefit from anything that requires familiarity with the forums.

Who wins here? Players who are familiar with the forums. Player willing to pursue a broad variety of these encounters, regardless of IC motivation. Players who are high level enough to be confident in their ability to at least survive an encounter that's rougher than they expected. Players who are spec'd for direct combat. Is this a group of players we want to receive disproportionate rewards? I would have assumed the answer was no.

ALFA suffers greatly from slippery slope. Once you're strong, it becomes a lot easier to get stronger. When you're weak, you tend to stay weak. I cannot imagine any way that this idea wouldn't make that dynamic more extreme.

Voting no.

[psycho_leo]

The point is to make things more dynamic and less "oh yeah this cave its full of lizards for the 100th time across three characters I've played" without requiring a ton of spawn rebuilding done on the module all the time.

I would question why all three of those PCs were so obsessed with exterminating lizards and/or spelunking that they kept on going into those caves.

Some people do prefer adventuring rather than sit in a bar to talk about their feelings. DnD is about adventuring after all. There's only so much you can do sans DM intervention.

As Galadorn points out, the idea that forum participation should be required to effectively play the game is questionable. New (and therefore low-lvl) players are the least likely to benefit from anything that requires familiarity with the forums.

Forum participation has always been required to effectively play the game. Granted, my notion of playing the game "effectively" involves hooking up with as many players and participating in as many DM events as possible. And forum participation and irc has always been the easiest way for me to achieve. it.

As for the proposal itself.. it might be good or not. It all comes down to how you do it. But as long as its not a huge orc war party sitting in the middle of the main road to silvy, I'm good with it. PC death has always been a possibility when diverting from the beaten paths since the old days of NWN 1.

[Blindhamsterman]

The important thing to remember is this:

Faerun is supposed to be dangerous, currently it isn't to anyone except lone 1st or 2nd level PCs (that aren't Clerics ) outside of DM events.

The only reason people spend all their time logged in and sitting about in taverns is because going about the same caves is frankly dull when you know what creatures will be there in types and numbers.

Adding spawns like this (not all need to be hugely dangerous, or dangerous at all! some might even be a random merchant from the creator with a more unsual stock (which is done by selling said item to the merchant by the DM)) simply adds life, and if the majority are placed inside caves, in deep forests or in mountain trails, there reall is no issue, low level PCs aren't supposed to go charging into every area available, it's something that has come about by a lack of challange.

Adding real, genuine dangers as well as locks and traps into the servers will achieve the following:

• -People will party up and consider a plan based on new rumours, resulting in an actual adventure! (this is key)
  -People will begin to consider exit strategies, right now most PCs will stand their ground and fight the spawns they come across if they're in a party, the result would instead make spells such as expeditious retreat, invisibility and even summons take on new roles. e.g. Summon a wolf, cast expeditious retreat and get the hell away.
  -Locks and the like bring some sorely needed content to rogue types, it also makes a wizard memorizing utility spells useful, which is awesome, as that is supposed to be a wizards role, to have utilities to aid a party.
  -People will begin to think up useful combat tactics, right now most enemies are simple attacking types, easiest way to kill being to rush them. If however there were warlocks which target touch AC, or spellcasters which use hold spells etc, the requirement for parties to actually be prepared would dramatically increase, which can only improve immersion.
  -Cause players to be inclined to spend their coin on things that don't directly increase character power - e.g. healing potions, alchemical bombs etc.
  -Gives players something fun to play through, depending on the detail put into these spawns, it'd be quite easy for the group of players to RP what they see, which can be awesome in and of its self.
  -Potential for competition between Adventuring groups, imagine two seperate adventuring parties hear about a tribe of orcs that have set up camp, and supposed reward for removing the menace, do the two groups band together or work independantly toward finding out where these orcs are and disposing of them?
  -Lower level parties that wish to tackle a more challenging encounter might choose to hire a higher level PC of a specific class to aid them in their adventure, allowing for further RP opportunities.
  -In many ways, most importantly, while some folk have no issue getting DM time, this system would allow for the players that do have issues with getting it to have something different and worthwhile to do.

I survived with my current PC when a scheme was done like this some time ago, he was low level then and witnessed a band of level 2-4 type PCs (maybe four or five of them) tackle an Ogre Magi and suffer no casualties. It was something of a challange but was doable and no doubt led to a feeling of satisfaction as their foe fell to the ground.

<edit>

Dergons suggestion to give names to NPCs is a good one too e.g. 'manging looking orc' or 'brutish looking orc' or 'heavily armed orc' all imply the level of challenge one might expect.

[CloudDancing]

The encounter system on TSM already functions like this. I think that would work on BG if done right and w/o a travel map.

But what I hate about random spawns is the lack of control for Dms.

Ask yourself do I want my hard working players who I have built campaigns for and have spent hours helping developing their PRCs and what not to die to a random number function spawn when I am not around?

TSM had something like this infamously called "the Rick Rat" and as you may know, mainly killed low level players walking through areas where there were ample guards and hunter NPCs and of course lots of afk people.

I hate knowing the PCs that I care about as a DM die via a computer glitch, or double spawns, or some badly made mob as per the Rick Rat that should have never been added to that mix. I hate the fact that you can just say "screw it" and run to an AT to get out of it.

I prefer leaving those things up to Dms to masterfully set up, manage, and allow players to roleplay out exploring non-melee alternatives first and using their roleplaying skills.

[Blindhamsterman]

The concept is quite different from TSMs random Spawns however, in that these are designed by a DM, and can be made to be quite detailed. there are options to make things clearer in monster or npc danger, giving them appropriately descriptive names or if it's possible actual descriptions, meaning a ranger or rogue could sneak up, and select 'examine' learn that x has a large well made sword, and moves with the practiced ease of a warrior born or whatever.

also, again

I prefer leaving those things up to Dms to masterfully set up, manage, and allow players to roleplay out exploring non-melee alternatives first and using their roleplaying skills

assumes that players can getr DM time, which for many, they can't. there is only so much tavern RP that many people can stomach, it simply isn't IC for a lot of pcs to spend all their time sat in an tavern getting drunk. Sure it's nice to do, and can be a lot of fun with the right company. but most PCs are meant to be adventurers, this means they should be out adventuring.

As Mirabai said in a different thread, it can be hard for a DM to get inspired to DM a group that spends all its time sat in the safest place on a server.

And for the most part, without something to actually do, there is little point in wandering the server which results in the above comment being an issue.


Still, there is some value to your point on not wishing to see PCs that a DM has spent a lot of time and investment in getting killed in such a mini adventure, simple solution? PCs should spend more time being prepared, and travel in groups. Lets face it, many of ALFAs PCs fail to do the former, and the majority that don't do the latter are likely to avoid encounters anyway.

[Brokenbone]

Do it, and check your logs afterwards. If it turns out it's really just a loot delivery vector for "the strong" and cold nooblin death for "the weak", adjust your plans.

Loot also doesn't have to be "in the chest at the camp", eh? In the chest, an OOC note of "VARIOUS SPOILS FROM CAMP, SEE OR PM DM MIRABAI TO TELL YOUR TALE OF DERRING DO AND REDEEM THIS COUPON" could do. If you as DM feel that even in your absence, people took on an appropriate challenge, did some roleplay, involved fellow players, bla bla bla, give an award appropriate to as if you had even been there as the DM. If you as DM feel that people just wiped the floor with what to them represented a mook encounter, no IC justifications, maybe solo'd it or were being the "mighty" guides forcing their bunch of "squires" to the background, well, give an award that you feel appropriate in that case too. Keep some "Clothes, Unwashed", "Bag of Copper Coins", "Deer Carcass" etc. on your avatar to make those kinds of awards on the fly.

I never felt bad as a Daggerdale DM to set up a small camp of hobgoblins here and there, decorate with one sitting on a log, couple archers, etc. and a loot bag with some mild stuff, then again, I knew my playerbase too, and we really knew the logs well (hey, who killed 35 bloodhawks for feathers in that old static, wtf?!)

But yeah. Go for it, keep an eye on logs, and consider OOC "come tell DM XYZ about your wonderful adventure for loot and XP" notes in the chest rather than loot, it may also help with player sentiment / suspicion about the rich getting richer, eh? Sometimes the "loot" might even be plot hooks for other things you want to cook up, eh? "Why's there a company seal from such-and-such Coster among the bandit stuff, is it stolen, or were they agents of the (plot villain)?"