PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

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PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

For quite some time, interest has been voiced to me about a Spellguard PrC, or equivalent thereof. Instead of going through costly man hours (unless someone volunteers), I perused the unused data in NWN2 (Much like Mystic Theurge) and found this class that fits the theme of what a Spellguard entails. It would require testing to make sure the abilities still function, but all of it is already in game, just turned off.

Neverwinter Nine (Magus)
(PRESTIGE CLASS)

A Neverwinter Nine Magus is especially capable of dealing with magical threats to himself or his party.

Requirements:


Skills: 10 ranks of Spellcraft

Spells: Ability to cast 3rd level divine or arcane spells.


Class Features:


- Hit Die: d8

- Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Neverwinter Nine Magi gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.

- Bonus Feat: At level 1 and level 4, the Magus is able to select a bonus feat.

- Group Spell Resistance: At 3rd level the Neverwinter Nine Magus gains spell resistance 10 + Neverwinter Nine level which affects himself and anyone with 10' of him.

- Potent Casting: At 5th level, the Neverwinter Nine Magus can spend a full round action and then begin potent casting. Every spell cast for the next three rounds automatically is treated as if effected by the Empower or Extend meta-magic feat. This ability can be used once per day.

We would obviously repick the skill selection, as it was never solidified, but that is an easy enough matter. I would also have the hit dice lowered, and add special requirement: Member of the Silverymoon Spellguard, or go with the in general approach we took with Knight Protector and make it an elite spellcaster PrC for a variety of potential organizations.

Let me know what you think.

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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Blindhamsterman »

class doesn't get spellcasting, so a wizard or cleric loses 5 levels of spellcasting. Sure seems fine, a good number of useful abilities there to make up for the loss of spellcasting, and bonus hp in the case of a wizard.


if we wanted spellcasting for the class, i'd suggest dropping the hp down to d6 and removing the bonus feats (but perhaps giving it a pre-chosen feat on 1st, giving it abilities every other level)
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

Ack, that didn't get copied over, but according to the notes on it, they are supposed to get spellcasting. If that is incorrect, we'd need to add that in.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Potent Casting: At 5th level, the Neverwinter Nine Magus can spend a full round action and then begin potent casting. Every spell cast for the next three rounds automatically is treated as if effected by the Empower or Extend meta-magic feat. This ability can be used once per day.
hmm basically allows the person to get the benefit of one of the mentioned metamagic feats on one spell per day. (to simplify the explanation).

Useful but certainly not game breaking
Ack, that didn't get copied over, but according to the notes on it, they are supposed to get spellcasting. If that is incorrect, we'd need to add that in.
bonus feats and spellcasting in PRCs isn't doable. so it'd need something chosen instead. D8 hp with no loss of anything else on a wizard, would be far too powerful.

what about:

spellcasting on 4/5 levels. gets the abilities it has, no bonus feats but keeps d8 hp?
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

I'd lower the HP do d6 regardless. Its a boon to a wizard, slight loss to a cleric. I'd ditch the feats if that is a problem and add in spellcasting progression. I'd have the level they get the spell resistance have no spell progression, but increase their CL still.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

I've discussed it with a few DMs and folks, and came up with something more final. Comments before I propose it:
d6 hit dice

Full Spellcasting Progression

- Level 1: Mythal Attunement: At 1st level, the Spellguard gains a token that attunes him to the magical energies of Silverymoon's mythals. This allows the Spellguard to cast spells that would otherwise be restricted within the magical warding of the city.

- Level 3: Group Spell Resistance: At 3rd level the Spellguard gains spell resistance 10 + Spellguard level which affects himself and anyone with 10' of him.

- Level 5: Potent Casting: At 5th level, the Spellguard can spend a full round action and then begin potent casting. Every spell cast for the next three rounds automatically is treated as if effected by the Empower or Extend meta-magic feat. This ability can be used once per day.
We're testing if the token already in game for the NPC spellguards work for PCs, and if so, that would make an amazing (and perfectly suited) first level class feature.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Brokenbone »

Isn't one of the main features of the Spellguard their power to be "selective" about who an AoE spell hits? Magic cops who can throw a fireball into a marketplace and tell it to only roast say, the Orc racial type, to zap a mean band of orcs who come to rough up the market, and leave all the innocent peasants and merchants unharmed?

It's about the only sexy power the PrC has in PnP. IMHO.

Group spell resistance sounds like it's a "thematically" close match, but vastly overpowered. Not killing noncombatants is easy in a world where NPCs are unrepresented most of the time for performance reasons. Giving one's party a moving aura worth tens of thousands of gold pieces were it on items is a little OP. Sure, pallies have auras for some interesting powers, but spell resistance is wildly powerful compared to say, buffs vs. fear and whatnot.

Does anyone working on this have a pdf of Player's Guide to Faerun? Easily googled & downloaded, which is where I checked out the Selective Spell power, which was the only cool thing I noticed about the class. Nothing else was all that sexy. Maybe being able to throw a "personal" defense spell on someone else (like say, Shield?) is cool, but chances are that'd be a gong show to implement technically, maybe not. Referring to the "Spellguard" power of level 5.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Brokenbone, the class SSM is suggesting isn't actually in any way the spellguard, it's simply the nwn9 magus class from nwn2 (that was cut).

SSM, I still think considering the classes abilities full caster progression as well as the abilities and d6hp is way too much... Your earlier suggestion of dropping a caster level on the SR aura level made most sense.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

Brokenbone wrote:Isn't one of the main features of the Spellguard their power to be "selective" about who an AoE spell hits? Magic cops who can throw a fireball into a marketplace and tell it to only roast say, the Orc racial type, to zap a mean band of orcs who come to rough up the market, and leave all the innocent peasants and merchants unharmed?

It's about the only sexy power the PrC has in PnP. IMHO.

Group spell resistance sounds like it's a "thematically" close match, but vastly overpowered. Not killing noncombatants is easy in a world where NPCs are unrepresented most of the time for performance reasons. Giving one's party a moving aura worth tens of thousands of gold pieces were it on items is a little OP. Sure, pallies have auras for some interesting powers, but spell resistance is wildly powerful compared to say, buffs vs. fear and whatnot.

Does anyone working on this have a pdf of Player's Guide to Faerun? Easily googled & downloaded, which is where I checked out the Selective Spell power, which was the only cool thing I noticed about the class. Nothing else was all that sexy. Maybe being able to throw a "personal" defense spell on someone else (like say, Shield?) is cool, but chances are that'd be a gong show to implement technically, maybe not. Referring to the "Spellguard" power of level 5.
Archmage gets the select people in your AoEs to not target ability, I believe, which is a much higher level PrC. SR 10 + PrC level is nice, but its not incredible or overpowered. Its also in a teeny tiny little aura area. There are spells at similar levels to achieve better or similar results. Knight Protector's aura, by comparison gives +3 saves +2 AC at level 4. Not out of the realm of what already exists.
Blindhamsterman wrote:Brokenbone, the class SSM is suggesting isn't actually in any way the spellguard, it's simply the nwn9 magus class from nwn2 (that was cut).

SSM, I still think considering the classes abilities full caster progression as well as the abilities and d6hp is way too much... Your earlier suggestion of dropping a caster level on the SR aura level made most sense.
We can do that, or just lower it to actual d4 and keep full caster progression, which I think would be better. The two existing mage classes - Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep, and Loremaster, both keep full spell progression and have alot more to offer over their full level progression.

So lower it to d4 hp, keep full spell progression. And I await this weekend to see if the mythal token works properly on TSM.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Blindhamsterman »

reconsidering it, it's a 5 level PRC, keep d6, it's a nice little boon to a wizard afterall
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by NESchampion »

SwordSaintMusashi wrote:Archmage gets the select people in your AoEs to not target ability, I believe, which is a much higher level PrC. SR 10 + PrC level is nice, but its not incredible or overpowered. Its also in a teeny tiny little aura area. There are spells at similar levels to achieve better or similar results. Knight Protector's aura, by comparison gives +3 saves +2 AC at level 4. Not out of the realm of what already exists.
Spellguard of Silverymoon actually has Selective Spell, not Archmage, though Archmage gets some ridiculously awesome abilities itself.

For reference, what a Spellguard usually gets is:

1) Token, Attunement
2) Bonus metamagic feat
3) Selective Spell
4) Spellguard (Su), Bonus metamagic feat
5) Selective Spell (multi), Spell Power

The first two allow some amazing power within the city itself: Attunement allows the Spellguard to activate any of the following spells by command word: air walk, bless weapon, bull's strength, cat's grace, control water, discern lies, dispel chaos, dispel evil, feather fall, lesser ironguard, quench, remove curse, remove paralysis, shield, shocking grasp, silence, and tongues. Being able to walk through the air, understand all spoken languages, discern lies from any npc or pc, and buff up every one of your allies before leaving on an adventure by command word unlimited times so long as you're within 1,000 yards of the city is pretty potent.

Metamagic feats are pretty straightforward.

Selective Spell is pretty much insanely useful, though making use of it would by and large require a DM just like most of the other features currently of a Spellguard. Being able to selectively target an empowered fireball at around 40 damage average into the middle of a fray or the ability to dump a cloudkill spell on top of a battle and have it only affect your enemies is extremely powerful, but (correct me if I'm wrong any coders in the mix) would be nigh impossible to code efficiently and a hassle even for DMs to handle without doing a lot of pausing and rolling on the side. If DMs are willing to do this though by all means I'm willing to work with this instead of Spell Resistance in the low teens for a ten foot aura, but it just seems like a whole lot of extra work for everyone involved there.

Spellguard is conceivably just as ridiculous as Selective Spell. Cast False Life, Mirror Image, Spell Mantles and Shield on your toughest soldier at will.

Spell Power raises the casters ECL by 1, not too shabby either.

The SR ability in the NWN9 class is pretty potent in it's own right too; ideally whatever the outcome decided upon having something to point to as reference to what a Spellguard can and cannot do in ALFA would be helpful to me as a player and presumably to DMs as well so they have an idea of what to expect I would request to do.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Brokenbone »

I believe I understood that the Neverwinter Nine Magus ("N9M") is dormant content from the game, presumably a "magey" version of the Neverwinter Nine ("N9")that maybe magey PCs in the single player campaign could've tried out since you're best buds with Nasher there.

PnP hasn't got "N9" nor "N9M", these were purely invented for the NWN2 game, and one of them for whatever reason was not active in the final product, though it could always be switched on. Dozens of splatbooks each with their "Warrior of Bladereach" level of niche PrCs, and no one ever did N9/N9M... heh. I won't take Wikipedia for gospel, but it was neat to see some D&D nerd out there seems to have curated a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes

Anyhow, Spellguard is a PnP PrC (one with clear d4 hd too). Its key attributes are "you can do things the mythal normally prevents if you've got your token that gets bound to you when you join" (conjurations, fire spells, useful only within Silverymoon), and "you can be a little more selective about AoE spells to prevent collateral damage" (useful anywhere, including fireballing your own party and choosing to only affect, say, undead or something underrepresented in your party).

Selective offensive spells would probably be a trip to try and technically implement. It would be amazing as well. SR in a radius, less hard but also kind of super-amazing. Reminds me of good old warlocks, where the "escape immediately!" type power of flee the scene (invisible/dimdoor) becomes "battle like monsters" when implemented as plain old haste. I guess SR would be sort of like a % chance of avoiding AoE effects, which if peasants were super near to you, they'd luck into non-roasty situations.

Anyhow, I assume people either have PDFs or can find PrC descriptions wherever, here's an ugly cut and paste which I found on some site for someone's homegrown world, I can't tell if it's word for word transcription from a pdf, but all the key points seem correct... just for reference if people are checking things out and have novel ideas on how to implement things.

***

Spellguard of Silverymoon

As the bastion of civilization in the savage North, the city of Silverymoon attracts a great deal of attention from the fell creatures that inhabit the snow-shrouded forests. Evil giants, trolls, dark elves, and creatures of an even fouler bent scheme to make the Gem of the
North fall. Fortunately for the Silvaeren, the city is well defended against such threats. The Spellguard, Silverymoon’s elite cadre of battle-trained arcane spellcasters, protects the city against the threat of hostile magic and aids the Knights in Silver against more mundane threats.

Sorcerers and wizards are the most likely characters to become spellguards. At present, there are no bards in the Spellguard, but
there is no reason why such a character might not join the organization. Multiclass characters are rare in the Spellguard, but fighters and rogues with levels in arcane spellcasting classes are sought after for their versatility in the field. Having levels in this prestige class implies at least a nominal degree of military service in Silverymoon. Thus, the class might not be appropriate for all campaigns.

<BROKENBONE NOTE: I CAN'T CUT AND PASTE TABLES FOR SHIT>
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day/Spells Known
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Metamagic feat +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Selective spell +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Metamagic feat, spellguard +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Selective spell (multiple types), spell power +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a spellguard of Silverymoon, a character must
fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment: Any nonevil.
Region: Silverymoon or Silver Marches.
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks.
Feats: Combat Casting, any one metamagic feat.
Spells: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells.
Special: The candidate must be accepted into the Spellguard.

CLASS SKILLS
The spellguard of Silverymoon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con) , Craft (Int) , Decipher Script (Int) , Knowledge all skills, taken individually) (Int) , Profession (Wis) , Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis). See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

CLASS FEATURES
All the following are class features of the spellguard of Silverymoon prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spellguards of Silverymoon gain no proficiency with any weapon, armor, or shield. Armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble, and double the normal armor check penalty applies to Swim checks.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new spellguard of Silverymoon level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class granted him access to 4th-level spells before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. This essentially means that he adds the level of spellguard of Silverymoon to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class granted him access to 4th-level spells, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class that granted access to 4th-level spells before he became a spellguard of
Silverymoon, he must decide to which class he adds each level of spellguard for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells
known.

Metamagic Feat: At 2nd level and again at 4th level, the spellguard may select any metamagic feat he does not already have as a bonus feat. He must meet any prerequisites for a feat in order to select it.

Selective Spell (Su): Spellguards are specifically trained to minimize collateral damage when casting their combat spells. Once per
day per point of Intelligence bonus (minimum once per day), a spellguard of at least 3rd level may designate a single type (and
subtype, if desired) of creature when casting a spell. When a single creature type has multiple subtypes, the spellguard may choose to
count only one of the subtypes or all of them, at his discretion. At the spellguard’s option, that type of creature is either the only type
affected by the spell or the only type unaffected by it. Inorganic material, objects, and anything else that does not have a creature
type is affected normally. Casting a selective spell requires a fullround action.

For example, suppose a spellguard is patrolling the forest around Silverymoon with a party of Knights in Silver made up of two
humans, an elf, and a dwarf. Suddenly, the group is rushed by goblins. The spellguard uses his selective spell ability to cast a fireball,
designating humanoid (goblinoid) as the only creature type affected. The fireball detonates in the midst of the melee, and although the
spellguard’s companions are within the area of the spell, they are spared any ill effects.

At 5th level, the spellguard may designate multiple creature types and subtypes for a selective spell. Each type or subtype so desig-
nated, however, uses up one additional use per day of his selective spell ability.

Spellguard (Su): The Spellguard was originally formed to protect High Lady Alustriel from personal attacks. Though that purpose
has largely become secondary to defending the city, spellguards still receive some training in serving as bodyguards. At 4th level, the
spellguard of Silverymoon may cast any personal-range defensive arcane spell on another character with a touch. For this purpose,
a defensive spell is one that improves AC, increases a saving throw modifier, or grants additional hit points (either by healing wounds
or by bestowing temporary hit points).

Spell Power (Ex): At 5th level, the spellguard’s effective caster level increases by 1 for the purpose of determining level-dependent
variables and making caster level checks.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Brokenbone »

PS - I somewhat crossposted with NES... not surprisingly he knows what Spellguards in PnP are all about.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

I'm aware that there is an actual PrC for Spellguard in PnP. I'm also aware the work to put that in would be ridiculous, not to mention pointless for most of the abilities only working in the city itself.

As the Knight Protector class evolved from Wynna wanting to get the Knight-Errant class in (another PnP class that wouldn't work well in an online environment), I am trying to make use of existing work that could be easily implemented and provide the desire flavor effect. We have these perfectly good things in game already just gathering dust: Let's see them get used.
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Re: PrC: Neverwinter Nine Magus (Spellguard)

Post by Brokenbone »

I understand that people including SSM & BHM (and NES) obviously have seen the guts of the Spellguard PrC "out there", wanted to post the guts for others to check out and, if desired, "brainstorm."

This isn't the standards forum or anything, all members can post here I'm hoping / pretty sure.

It's sounding almost like a general purpose high power wizard kit here though, why would you NOT take it? Free SR? Concentrate for a round, 1/d and get a short term metamagic impact of Extend or Empower even though you didn't memorize the spell at the extra high level that those feats would require, if you even PICKED the feat? Not bad deals, the downside seems only to be that you don't get certain wizardly bonus feats, you get these PrC things instead, and much more quickly than bonus feats would appear. Not a bad trade. Maybe there's some other drawback I'm not thinking of hard enough... that is, to not sticking to a pure class like wiz or sor (your familiar's HD not growing maybe? dunno)
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