should the starting lvl for prcs be lowered?

[DMyles]

You can start taking most PRCs at lvl 6 or 7. I think we should lower this just a little so that you can start every PRC at lvl 5. Here is my reasoning.

If you have any combination of two medium BAB classes you will take a -1 BAB penalty and delay getting a second attack unless you start the second class at lvl 5 or 9.

For example a Rouge 8 gets a +6 BAB and two attacks per round.

A Rouge 6/ Assassin 2 gets a +5 BAB and won't get two attacks until he reaches lvl 9.

Rouge 4/ Cleric of Mask 4 gets the full +6 and two attacks. ( because he started the second class at PC lvl 5 )

Rouge 3/ Cleric of Mask 3/ Assassin 2 gets a +4 and won't reach two attacks until PC lvl 10.

Given how long it takes to get from 8-9 and from 9-10 on ALFA this is a harsh
penalty.

More explanation on how this works can be found here http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 68&t=45891

I have been told it isn't possible to change the way this works from a tech standpoint.

With a PRC the only way to avoid the penalty is to start the PRC at lvl 9 which most players never reach. Lower the possible starting lvl for PRCs to 5 would give players the option to avoid this penalty and still be able to play with a PRC.

It really only effects medium BAB PRCs but to be fair to all the classes I think we should just lower them all to lvl 5.

[Brokenbone]

Do you really mean "should the BAB be lowered for BAB-prereq'd PrCs"?

Lots of PrCs have steep feat requirements, where you think to yourself "unless starting with a human who had a feat bonus, or a class that gave a free feat or two at some level or for a domain", it's often awful hard to envision how you could start the PrC below whatever 6-7 ballpark maybe you could envision as the lowest point of entry.

Add to this that some feats themselves have BAB prerequisites.

I do acknowledge from your other thread that combining medium BAB classes can sometimes mean "disappointing / unexpected" results in terms of when your next point of BAB dribbles in. The examples you give, do, y'know, cause me to give my head a little shake, think other thread or some IRC chat saw people acknowledge that sometimes house-rules in PnP of "all your medium classes can stack for the purposes of figuring out BAB entitlement," but the weird result you've described is essentially by the book.

Funny thing is, those who recognize this problem, might be encouraged to metagame somewhat, i.e., time levels or the combining of levels in such a way as to "wait until you get that next owed BAB point before switching and signing up for a delay to your next", which might also bring into account the idea of managing class gaps to minimize Xp penalties for non-favored combos. Headache math game, not very RP oriented.

I do empathize I think, with the idea that PrCs might not get a lot of use in a "low and slow" type setting. I've often thought of the "Pr" as "Prerequisite" classes, not "Prestige", people get hung up on the idea that hoo boy this is an exclusive special club, but really, a lot of PrCs are nothing to write home about from the numbers side of things.

[Heero]

I dont see the point. PrC requirements - like monstar abilities, feats, spells, and just about everything else - match the source/canon, which, if I am not mistaken, is ALFAs goal. Sure it is difficult to reach in ALFA, but that doesnt mean it should be made easier. PrCs are a goal that is reached through hard work, I dont think lowering the requirements because certain multiclass combination might make them more difficult to reach (especially since the goal of many of these multiclass options boarder upon powergaming, ie min/maxing for the best possible PC).

Furthermore, wasnt it decided in that topic you linked that fractional AB is NOT core DnD?

It is my belief that multiclassing should impact the level at which you may take a PrC as many of these classes, especially those with AB requirements, are designed to be taken by single class characters. Why should these PrCs be made easier to reach for those dipping into other character classes along the way?

And if my (horrible) against argument aint enough, Ill offer this: lets stick to the source materials, per favore.

[Blindhamsterman]

Currently, the only folk with PRCs took them at level 10 I think. Dont think thats really a bad thing either. They could be entered earlier in all cases as well I believe, but for whatever reason, they waited, Did some special RP related to getting into it etc.

[DMyles]

could someone who can make a poll do so to see how people feel about this on a whole?

[Galadorn]

Awful idea. PrCs should be HARDER to get in my opinion and desire. They should be so rare, and deadly to find training in, almost all seekers shouldn't even survive it.

An aside:
And starting level for all new PCs should be 0 level. -500 XP at roll up, maybe 30 gp starting gold. Everyone plays young teenagers just breaking into an adventuring lifestyle and possibly still working on the farm at home for their parents. 0 lvl wizards are apprentices for known NPC wizards, and can cast 2-3 cantrips tops. 1 hp. All other non-wizard PCs start with 3hps and no CON bonus.

Everyone starts with simple weapons only.

Only humans start with 1 feat. All other races get their racial bonuses but no feats.

After the PCs gain 500 dangerous XP, they then choose what class they become based upon the RP development from lvl 0 to level 1, from -500xp to 0xp.

And... RPXP is not gained until reaching level 1.

Who's game?

P.S. Not kidding. In fact, if Bu ever is retired, I would like the option to start at minus 500xp... level 0, under all of the above restrictions ... can it be done?


~Galadone

[CloudDancing]

Some simple points:

1. All PCs you see out there over level 7 started at level 1 so they made it some how and possibly have the secrets to survive if asked.

2. If you ask would it be legal for a DM to give a player a XP boost via a well written bio or for whatever reasons via the Alfa Pillars, the answer is YES. Would the HDM let you do that? That depends on the HDM.

3. Has it been tried? Yes, and it had VERY little effect on the game.

(Really what ruined it was the player OC bragging during the test. (OC bragging and showboating causes a WHOLE lot of of problems. PCs are very jealous and entitled and if they aren't getting what everyone else is getting there is hell to pay ALWAYS.)

4. Exodus is a good look how three levels can effect RP. Ask one of their Dms?

[DMyles]

I don't care if fractional leveling isn't part of the core rules. The way it is done now to only effect medium attack bonus characters is ridiculously stupid and ill conceived. Why should a PC who is lvl 5 something and lvl 3 something else be punished when a PC who is lvl 4 in both classes is not? (( by this I mean punished with the BAB penalty, xp penalty is another issues ))

I can see the prcs are supposed to be rare argument. Restricting them to lvl 9 ( if you don't wan the penalty ) makes it so they are only a toy for the hard core players. Not everyone has the kind of time to devote to get to lvl 9 or 10. Gearing towards hard core players makes the game less attractive to new players and returning players who want to play more casually.

There also seems to be a contingent around here that seems to think getting to a high level is a sign that one is playing the right way. A sort of sentiment that if you play like a true ALFAn you are mostly going to avoid death. That folks who die are either noobs or powergamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous. Stacking the deck so you never have to roll the dice is just another form of meta gaming. We all can't help doing it to some extent, but the people who act all superior with how patiently they can grind need to take a wif of there own crap.

I play the game for fun, and to me only dangerous situations are exciting. That means a high chance of death. I don't get real disappointed when a pc dies because lvl 1 is sometimes the most exciting. Most of my pcs that have been killed have been offered rezes, but that is another thing that is supposed to be rare so I don't like them. I would prob be higher lvl now if that wasn't the case though.

[hollyfant]

How about we add more base classes instead? They're available right from the bat.

[Veilan]

How about we add more base classes instead? They're available right from the bat.

While simultaneously banning all PrCs so people stop feeling they need one to "compete" or otherwise have fun?

[Heero]

Honestly, and please dont take this the wrong way, I fail to see what this is about other than, "Itll take me too long to get there, so I want it sooner."

They are this way per PnP for a reason - because they are difficult to obtain - and I fail to see your reasoning behind making them easier to obtain. Its a character goal, something to aspire to (hence the 'prestige' adjective), not something that should come easy and early for whichever PC wants them.

Furthermore, specifically which PrC are you speaking of when you say you cannot take it until level 9?

Stormlord, for instance, could be taken at level 6 (with a human, level 7 without).
Weapons master would be level 7.
Assassin is level 6 (unless Im missing something).

Really, the only two that take until level 9 (going from memory here) would be arcane tricktster and divine champion.

[Heero]

How about we add more base classes instead? They're available right from the bat.

+1 Like

[DMyles]

This thread is supposed to be about the lack of fractional leveling and the poor balance resulting from that mechanic. Lowering the PRC level to 5 is only an attempted work around because full fractional leveling is not possible.

If you want to be a rouge/cleric you can switch at 5 to get around it. If you want to be a cleric/Stormlord your first chance to switch without a BAB penalty is lvl 9

[Blindhamsterman]

or just suck up the single point of BAB loss? you get a bunch of other stuff instead for taking PRCs.

More base classes would be cool though. Probably best place to start would be PHB2 as they're all kinda different to what we have atm. Another good one (thats been done by kaedrin already) would be Scout... id totally roll a scout next time if we had that

[DMyles]

you get suff for prcs but you give up stuff to just to hit the requirements. For Stormlord you have to take great fortitude at lvl 1 instead of one of the more useful starting lvl feats. You have to choose from a limited selection of weapons. You have to worship Talos and pick from his domains which might not give you the best stuff (cough uncanny dodge).

It isn't just the BAB either, it is getting a second attack

A fighter gets two attacks at lvl 6

A pure cleric gets two attacks at lvl 8

A cleric/stormlord gets a second attack at 9