should the starting lvl for prcs be lowered?

[Blindhamsterman]

instead of one of the more useful starting lvl feats

as followers of talos are quite likely human... not true, you get two starter feats, and toughness isn't exactly a bad feat to take either!



erm... the whole POINT to strom lord is that you worship Talos, so thats not really an issue.

pick from his domains which might not give you the best stuff (cough uncanny dodge)

heh, the broken one? But seriously, thats one thing that really should change, Clerics get the best of all worlds (average AB, Good AC, Good HP, Good Saves, Good Spells and some special abilities). They aren't supposed to get feats for domains as well as all that... (except war which does give weapon focus in pnp) If that was fixed, the above issue would cease to be an issue.

The two attack stuff is a bummer though I guess. But in exchange for somewhat slower AB progression, you get resistance to certain elements, the ability to enchant weapons to +1 and give them electricity damage.

[DMyles]

Also using a spear means no shield. Combine that with not being able to take luck of hero at lvl one and your AC isn't ubber any more. The domain bonus spells are actually damn nice, but for a mele centric build they aren't what you would pick. Turn undead progression stops when you switch to stromlord.

you get a +1 with a spear at stormlvl 1 which negates the BAB penalty but your second attack still gets delayed. You get to enchant with an extra d8 damage on your spear at lvl 2 which is nice, but is having a 2d8 two handed weapon vs a 1d12 really worth everything you are giving up?

Compare it to a straight cleric with some of the better domains (str, war, earth, time) and there is no comparison. This isn't just about the stormlord prc though. It is one of the more ubber ones and the delayed second attack is still bad.

Rogues, bards, monks, warlocks, druids and spirit shaman all have to deal with the same thing if they want to prc. High and low BAB characters get to prc with no effective penalty.

[Zelknolf]

Rouge 3/ Cleric of Mask 3/ Assassin 2 gets a +5 and won't reach two attacks until level 9.

I fixed this for you.

Also! If you want a martial rogue, put a level in a martial class. Unsurprisingly, the guys who are good with swords are good with swords, and making yourself into one of the guys who are good with swords will make you good with swords. If more rogue skills and sneak attack is more important to you, then take more levels in rogue, but don't expect to be a master swordsman. If you want to be a master swordsman, take some levels in fighter, and don't expect to be a master sleuth.

It's the nature of opportunity cost, and that's central to our game.

[DMyles]

thanks I should have written it

a rogue 5/cleric of mask 2 assassin 1 which would get a +4 and a second attack at 10

how do you explain how a straight rogue 8 (same character lvl) gets a +6 and a second attack at 8

What makes the straight rogue so much better with a sword?

[Blindhamsterman]

focus?

[DMyles]

yea the writers of the core rules forgot to focus on what they were doing when they didn't include fractional leveling

[Blindhamsterman]

or more likely, they felt that that character that chooses to multiclass and get cool abilities from another source, will have a hard time focusing on the skills that made their last class special.

warrior types all learn to fight with a lot of skill, so they dont have the issue.

someone opts to take wizard levels, they dont get good at fighting

a rogue takes cleric levels, have to focus on getting down on all those prayers at the start, putting their combat training (such as it is) back

[Rotku]

This thread is supposed to be about the lack of fractional leveling and the poor balance resulting from that mechanic.

Ah right. Took two reads through this thread to work out where the PrC issue came in.

So the point made is it's unfair the way the DnD system (and hence NWN2) deals with BAB and we should hack NWN2 apart to fix it?

[DMyles]

Sorry this is a complex issue and I probably haven't done a good enough job of explaining it. Basically I am say the optional fractional base attack bonus rule found on p 73 of the unearthed arcana is much more balanced then the core rule found in the players hand book.

Maybe these links will make the distinction between the two a little more clear.

http://mishmash.wikia.com/wiki/Fraction ... _and_Saves

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=6754&ti= ... 1298419935

Problem is we couldn't change this if we wanted to because it is so core to NWN2. You can currently work around it by paying special attention to when you switch levels.

Multiclass can change at lvl 5 or 9. Prcs can only change at 9 because you can't get one by 5. Level 9 is kind of an exclusive club in ALFA which is why I suggest giving prcs the 5 option as well.

[Rotku]

Problem is we couldn't change this if we wanted to because it is so core to NWN2. You can currently work around it by paying special attention to when you switch levels.

Multiclass can change at lvl 5 or 9. Prcs can only change at 9 because you can't get one by 5. Level 9 is kind of an exclusive club in ALFA which is why I suggest giving prcs the 5 option as well.

Or you can just do what I do and be too n00bish to understand any of the numbers and just play the game for what it's there for.

[Insert usual disclaimer about me not telling anyone how to play the game properly and everyone having their own playing styles]

[Swift]

you get suff for prcs but you give up stuff to just to hit the requirements.

You do that for just about every PrC.

Your character makes a sacrifice to be something more than normal. I do not see the issue with that at all.

[Veilan]

Clerics get the best of all worlds (average AB, Good AC, Good HP, Good Saves, Good Spells and some special abilities). They aren't supposed to get feats for domains as well as all that... (except war which does give weapon focus in pnp) If that was fixed, the above issue would cease to be an issue.

[sidejack]

Yeah, I always felt that the NWN2 cleric domain feats - some of which steal other classes unique class features (lol?) - was just too CRPG-gimmicky, and actually adds insult to injury for, well, everyone else, heh.

[/sidejack]

[DMyles]

In pnp you get a lot more bonus spells. The domain feats are an attempt to balance that to some extent, although it is probably not needed.

some of them are great

Luck: free luck of hero
Earth: free toughness
darkness: free blind fight
chaos: free slippery mind
war: free weapon focus and free wpm or wpe if the favored weapon is martial or exotic

then some are mostly useless

trickery: free feint ( clerics don't need feint )
water: free evasion (don't have the reflex save to make it useful )
air ( free uncanny dodge which doesn't work and don't have a bunch of dex anyway )
Death negative plane avatar ( exceptionally weak to the point of being laughable )

there are some others that are kind of in between but having domain list helps even things out a lot because people can't just pick and chose the two best, they have to find something on the list.

[Galadorn]

can't beliEVE you left this one out...

Animal: Free Druid Animal Companion!!! the BEST Domain of ALL.

[DMyles]

I consider that in the middle for clerics.

Better to just be a druid if you want to do that because you get better buffs for them. Druids are more powerful then clerics in 3.5 anyway when you consider all the changes that have helped them like being about to use any weapons as long as they get they are proficient. Plus the super ubber feats like elephants hide which allow them to easily out AC a cleric at early lvls on our low magic world. Plus 6 to natural ac anyone for 10 min as a free action.